Teenager Dead After Friend Plays Around With Gun They Stole in a Home Burglary

Categories: Guns, Karma
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A 17-year-old was shot and killed Tuesday after he and his friends burglarized a neighbor's home in Tolleson, according to Phoenix police.

The fatal shot was delivered from the homeowner's gun, but it wasn't the homeowner who shot the boy. Police say a 15-year-old girl who helped burglarize the neighbor's house shot the boy with the gun they had just stolen from the man's home.

According to Phoenix PD, three teens -- whose named haven't been released -- broke into a home near 83rd Avenue and Lower Buckeye yesterday.

The teenagers, age 15, 16, and 17, stole weapons and other items from the house.

Back at one of their own homes, the 15-year-old girl involved in the burglary started to play around with the gun.

"The 15-year-old suspect is alleged to have pulled out one of the handguns that were stolen and began to manipulate it," police Sergeant Trent Crump says in an e-mail. "Thinking she had cleared the weapon, she pointed it at her friend and pulled the trigger. He did not survive his injuries."

The dead boy has been identified as Raymond Berryman, a Tolleson High School student.

The 16-year-old boy has been charged with burglary, but the 15-year-old girl was being "detained" yesterday on homicide and burglary charges, according to Phoenix police.


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87 comments
cjleete
cjleete

Although the homeowner should have locked up the gun, the death of the juvenile burglar is just Natural Selection asserting itself,  as it was meant to be.

MandyMountain
MandyMountain

Yee, Kavanaugh, are you reading this? Here's something that really does need attention, and from which people need to be protected. Oh, not part of your agenda? Then STFU about medical pot, bathrooms, and all of that silliness.

cassityg32
cassityg32

Another responsible gun owner.....whose gun was accessible enough to be stollen & used to shoot & kill someone. Not to mention, if burghers could obtain it then it wasn't safely secured & locked away very well.

danxranx
danxranx

Wow thats sad, too bad she did not have proper firearm training. Had she, this senseless death would not have happened!

www.PC-Privacy.tk 

valleynative
valleynative

Too bad the girl had never had any firearms safety training.  She would have known that removing the magazine doesn't mean the gun is unloaded - even if you've racked the slide to eject the round in the chamber before you drop the magazine.

Too bad the homeowner didn't keep his guns in a safe.


The single most cost-effective step the legislature could take to reduce gun violence would be to offer a tax incentive for gun owners to purchase safes.  The second best step would be to subsidize firearms safety education.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@MandyMountain Yes, we need more laws against breaking and enterring and burglary!  Thing is, if these kids complied with the laws already on the books regarding burglary, none of this would have happened.

marcy
marcy

@cassityg32 

Do you also blame women for allowing themselves to be raped?

teknik
teknik

@cassityg32 in all fairness it's not good protection when it's locked away.  i think the biggest thing here is that the homeowner wasn't home at the time of the theft.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@danxranx ARE YOU SERIOUS??? hahahahaha

eric.nelson745
eric.nelson745 topcommenter

@danxranx The only training this girl needed was "don't point a gun at anyone unless you intend to shoot them."

dogon
dogon

@valleynative  I was thinking it was too bad she didn't save a bullet for herself and the other punk.

eric.nelson745
eric.nelson745 topcommenter

@valleynative No. This single most effective step for the legislature would be to double-down on requirements to lock up guns when not in use. I'm have no idea if the gun owner has any liability in this case, but I'd add one more law: ensuring that the chamber is empty before stashing the gun away. 

Memo to authorities: Prosecute everyone involved in this tragedy to the fullest extent of the law. First-degree burglary for everyone involved in the break-in, involuntary manslaughter for the 15-year old girl. This tragedy needs to serve as a wake-up call for the entire community.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative Too bad they allegedly broke into a home, committed burglary, and stole the guns in the first place.  Its a tragedy - but clearly one that these kids could have avoided.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@marcy @cassityg32 Are you serious with this ridiculous question? How can you even equate what I'm saying to that garbage? Good lord

valleynative
valleynative

@teknik Even home defense firearms should be locked up, particularly when you're not home.  There are some really good quick-access safes that are secure, but which can be opened with a few touches.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@teknik @cassityg32 I agree to an extent EXCEPT I thought that keeping your weapon secure, out of a child's reach, even unloaded was part of being responsable. Yes, to "protect" you & yours but if a 15 year old was able to find & steal it.....lets rearrange this senero. Lets say this person was out doing whatever & instead of the 15 year old being a burglar it was his own daughter/son who was snooping or wanted to show off to some buddies resulting in a sibling or another friend being accidentally shot & killed. The majority of the comments in response to that story would have been things such as "why was that parent so stupid to have a loaded weapon laying around?" "What a horrible parent. They are as much to blame for not being responsable with their weapon" & worse/more graphic. At least those are the comments I've read in stories like that. So, what makes this any different? How is the person not being home the biggest thing here?

tcon45
tcon45

@dogon  More gun deaths ... what a fantastic way to make the world a better place!

cassityg32
cassityg32

@eric.nelson745 @valleynative Exactly! This "responsible" gun owner had a dangerous firearm within reach & not safely locked & stored in a safe place (if that was even possible)

valleynative
valleynative

@eric.nelson745  Threatened prosecution doesn't really do a lot to change people's behavior, or there wouldn't be any crime.  Offering rewards for desired behavior works much, much better.

It doesn't make sense to require that guns be unloaded.  A home defense gun should be loaded with one in the chamber, but locked in a quick-access safe.

You don't want to have to be chambering rounds when your life is in danger.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public I thought that went without saying.  A gun safe would have prevented the guns from falling into the hands of criminals.   While I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the kids, the girl probably doesn't deserve to go through life knowing that she killed her friend.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@JohnQ.Public @cassityg32 it was irresponsible to not have his gun secured. Had he been at home asleep when they accessed his gun he and/or those living with him could have all ended up dead. Dont try to twist what i have been saying, As I said, I put the blame on the kids but I feel that his gun should have been safely secured where someone couldn't access it so easily.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public  John, again it's a matter of things never being all or nothing.  You should be able to assume that any given person will obey the law and that most people will obey the law.  Only a fool would assume that everybody will obey the law.  If we could assume that, we wouldn't need police.

If I leave a loaded shotgun sitting on my porch, do I share any blame if somebody picks it up and shoots somebody else?  I think I would.  So does the law.

What we're arguing about is where to draw the line.  I say there is no line.  There are shades of culpability.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative Despite your effort to lecture me on logic, the logical implication of placing any responsibility at all at the foot of the homeowner is say the homeowner has fault, which I signficantly disagree with on both a moral and legal basis.

And yes, you do have the right to expect that people will not break the law.  That is the basic philosophical underpinning of an organized civil society.  Go read Thomas Hobbes or John Locke and the theory of social contract.  Try Locke's The Second Treatise of Government for starters.  The expectation that each of us is law abiding is the very foundation of the social contract that we each abide by in order to prevent complete anarchy from ensuing and which permits a well-ordered society. 

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public   John, can you please cite where I said that it was the homeowners fault?  I said that he has some responsibility if he failed to secure his belongings.  Why do you insist on looking at blame as all or nothing?

You absolutely do NOT have any right to expect that people will not break the law.  They absolutely will. You, like most people who tout more laws as a solution to violence, seem to be attributing magical powers to the law.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative You also can't simply say robberies occur so its the homeowners fault they were robbed.  That's like saying murders occur so any person who leaves their home without a kevlar vest is at fault for being murdered.  I certainly don't beleive that and I sure as hell hope that you don't believe that either.  Yes, you have the right to expect that you will not be robbed.  That is a reasonable expectation.  The fact that robberies do occur doesn't do anything to diminish my right to expect that you will not break into my home and steal my property.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public Since we all know that burglaries do happen, of course you don't have any "right" to assume that the things you leave lying around your home are secure.   You can't just declare something to be illegal and then congratulate yourself for having solved the problem. 

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative Lets assume for the sake of discussion that the homeowner  has no kids of his own in the house so that isn't part of the equation.  What you're saying is that this homeowner did not have the right to expect that his possessions in his locked home were secure from those who had no legal right to either be in his home or to take those possessions.  If this kids were invited into his home - that would be a whole different story.  But if they were not invited into the home, they enterred illegally and they stole his property illegally, then I can't see that he has any responsibility to them.  I applaud you for keeping your guns in safes, but I don't know that you have an obligation to protect your guns from someone who is accessing them illegally.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public As a gun owner, I feel a responsibility to do my best to prevent my guns from being used by criminals.  That makes it my responsibility to keep them in safes when I'm not around.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@cassityg32 How was he irresponsible - these kids broke into his home, burglarized it and stole the weapons. He has no responsibility to secure the weapons from an intervening illegal act. Now if he had his own children in his home and failed to secure the weapon so they couldn't access it, that would be a different story - obviously. But why should have have to secure these weapons from someone illegally enterring his home and illegally taking his possessions.  This is clearly a tragedy - one teen is dead and another has to live with the fact that she killed her best friend - but put the blame were it belongs, on those that (allegedly) committed the illegal acts.

dogon
dogon

@cassityg32 How am I a hypocrite? It seemed to me that you were defending the criminals and attacking me because I want less of them.  Most innocent people don't do that. Yes my original comment was callous. A child is dead because of his stupidity and the lives of many are changed forever.  Prison does not work. More laws do not work. Less people with the disposition for doing crime would work.  It is not my position in life to "fix" criminals. So if one criminal happens to take the life of another criminal I'm really not bothered by it.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @cassityg32 whatever you say dear

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @cassityg32 so we just give up all together & let all of them become criminals rather than doing what we can to get as many lives turned around resulting in, maybe not a perfect but definitely better society? And you were the one who stated that it sounded as if I had been in jail so you are the hypocrite in regards to that

dogon
dogon

@cassityg32 p.s. Cass there is no such thing as a "soul" so i am neither "poor" "lost" or "sick". If that is the extent of your mental health and other education then society is truly in much deeper trouble than even I could have imagined.

dogon
dogon

@cassityg32 You're funny! I've never spent a second incarcerated for any reason.  Your analysis of my mental state based on my opinion of some lowlife criminals isn't really boosting your resume. You are allowing your emotions to overwhelm your rational thought process. Thinking good thoughts may be fine for your own mental state but it really does nothing to undo situations such as the one in the article. What do you figure the percentage is that those "several" kids you have seen make up on the became-a-good-person: became-an-even-worse-person scale? 10%, 2%, 50%?  That still leaves a lot of criminals out wandering your neighborhood.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @cassityg32 P.s. no, no criminal record. Just experience/background in education, law enforcement & mental health which is why I think you TRUELY are in need of some help. Good luck to you

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @cassityg32 you poor lost sick soul. I've seen several kids just like them make life changes for the better & become successful, productive members of society.

dogon
dogon

@JohnQ.Public @dogon Yes I'm a heartless cad. It was a definite tragedy that a mere child lost his life and another is ruined by what she did. I'm really not sure how a "positive" spin could be put on all this. I guess I'm more of a type that would have brutal honesty rather than playing a game of "what if" when the reality of the situation, in my view, clearly shows a different outcome for the remaining kids. If they hadn't instigated the situation in the first place...

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@dogon It is a tragedy for a mother to have to bury her child.  It is a tragedy for someone who may have ultimately become a wonderful contributor to society to be cut down prior to making that contribution.  Who knows who or what this kid could have become.  Yes, the kids are responsible for the outcome, but that doesn't make it less tragic and to say otherwise is cold, heartless and cruel.  That may be the way you choose to live your life, but that is a sad and dark way to live.  You can acknowledge blame but also acknowledge the tragedy inherent in the situation.

dogon
dogon

@cassityg32 It's simple really so I'll type slowly so you can understand. Less criminals equals less crime. Society can worry less about having a crime done to them therefore they can be more productive. Positive outcome. You sound like someone who has a criminal record. I see you didn't offer to answer my question. What "positive" outcome do you see for any of these kids? (except for the dead one obviously)

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @cassityg32 oh ya, you definitely sound like a positive contribution to society 100%. You may want to look up positive & productive. The only pity I have for anyone is you, you sad sad man.

dogon
dogon

@cassityg32 If by ruined you mean I haven't spent time in prison for killing another human after breaking into my neighbors house and stealing the gun I used to kill my "friend" then yes I guess I'm ruined. What good do you see coming from any of these lovely kids?  So please spare me your false pity. I'm a successful positive contribution to society. I actually thought my input to this WAS positive and productive. Three less gas station attendants.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@dogon @tcon45 I feel sorry for you dogon. You were obviously ruined long ago & it's sad that rather than attempting to offer any sort of positive or productive thoughts/actions to this world you instead spew hate, & try to spread hopelessness.

dogon
dogon

@tcon45 @dogon Perhaps if these "children" were kept from  breeding and continuing the cycle of stupidity that seems to run rampant, there would be less crime in general.  These kids are ruined already. Why try to pretend that jail or some other form of reconditioning is going to help. A bullet is much cheaper. NO SYMPATHY for these losers.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@JohnQ.Public @cassityg32 ok true but regardless the gun was not secured & was accessible enough for a kid to get their hands on it.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@cassityg32 ***your 5 year old is supposed to be in the house and somone breaking into the house is not supposed to be.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@cassityg32 Big difference in that you're 5 year old is supposed to be in the house and someone breaking into the house. 

cassityg32
cassityg32

@JohnQ.Public @cassityg32 Well, without a doubt I believe that the robbers are at fault here. They made the choice to break into & rob this person in addition to playing around with/showing off with a loaded weapon. That being said, I can't help but feel that the owner has at least a small fraction of blame (or maybe guilt to share) as well. Let me first say that although i am for gun control, I'm NOT against guns but just as with anything else, if you are going to choose to own one there is a certain amount of responsibility that goes with that. If you choose to, lets say keep it loaded under your pillow at night-for protection of course- & your 5 year old finds it and shoots himself who's fault is that? A 5 year old (in most cases) is not going to be trained in gun safety etc...

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@cassityg32 Which is it - is it the fault of the homeowner of the fault of the (alleged) burglar that stole the weapon?

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@eric.nelson745 It is not negligence when someone (1) breaks into your home; and (2) steals your property.  Presumably the home was locked, why should the gun owner have any further obligation to secure it from someone who was illegally stealing it from him.  Don't forget - this is his home and these kids had no legal right to be in it or to take anything from it.  Thats BS.  He has a right to presume that anything contained within his locked home is secure from those who have no right to be there.

eric.nelson745
eric.nelson745 topcommenter

@valleynative @eric.nelson745 I 'spose you're right about having a round chambered but I still think the gun's owner should find himself/herself in a world of shit if it falls into the wrong due to his/her negligence. And I think there's a strong case for that here.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@valleynative @JohnQ.Public THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY

cassityg32
cassityg32

@valleynative @cassityg32 loaded or otherwise a gun is not a toy & needs to be respected it was incredibly stupid to point a gun at her friend at all.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public Maybe this is our point of miscommunication:  I don't feel that the homeowner's responsibility is to protect the burglars.  It's to prevent criminals from taking his guns and shooting people. In this particular case, the person who got shot happened to be the burglar, but that's not what usually happens.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@ValleyNative Or, at least, the fact that I've locked the doors to my home so that they shouldn't be able to access the weapons is full satisfaction of my moral obligation to prevent access.  (I don't actually own any weapons so I use my home as an example in the abstract).

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative And there, my friend, is where we politely but firmly disagree.  I just don't see a moral obligation to protect someone who is violating the sovereignty of my home, in violation of the law, to steal my property which they have no right to touch in the first place. 

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public  You're talking about legal responsibility.  I'm talking about moral responsibility.  The person whose home was burglarized can't be sued (successfully) by the family, but they are morally responsible (to a degree) for allowing the guns to get into the hands of criminals.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@ValleyNative There are, obviously, more legal issues to address but that, to me, is the overriding principal that should dominate the analysis of this matter.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative The important legal concept is "intervening illegal act."  If a person is an invitee in my house, I have an obligation to secure the house in order to prevent harm to the invitee.  Where a kid invites a friend over and the friend finds the dad's weapon and injures himself, clearly I'm at fault.  The difference is that these kids (allegedly) engaged in an intervening illegal act - the breaking and entering and theft.  The intervening illegal act of breaking and entering and theft breaks the direct connection between the homeowners actions to secure or not secure the weapon and the injury that may occur as a result of the theft of that weapon.  That intervening illegal act is what disginguishes the legal liability of the homeowner in this situation to the legal liability of the homeowner when an invitee is injured under similar circumstances.

valleynative
valleynative

@cassityg32 The reports say that she thought she had unloaded the gun.  It would still have been incredibly stupid for her to point an unloaded gun at him and pull the trigger, but the fact that she made an effort to unload it suggests that if she knew how to do it, we would never have heard about this burglary.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@valleynative @cassityg32 and I agree with you. In a perfect world everyone would have a basic knowledge of how to handle, operate etc... A weapon. In a perfect world everyone would have a basic knowledge of mental disabilities & what they entail, people wouldn't have unprotected sex resulting in unwanted pregnancies, no one would drive drunk, take harmful drugs and so on. Realistically though that isn't the world we live in. Not to mention, what makes anyone think if this 15 year old (TEENAGER) WAS trained in loading & unloading a gun and/or gun safety that she still would not have attempted to wanna "look cool" or show off resulting in the same outcome? Many trained individuals show up daily in the news for gun "accidents" & it's not like teenagers in general don't do stupid things on impulse.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@JohnQ.Public @cassityg32 No, I definitely blame the individuals that robbed this home & chose to play with or show off with a loaded weapon. I just feel as if the gun owner or any gun owner for that matter has a obligation to make sure that their weapon is out of reach of those who are not trained, authorized, responsible enough to handle a gun.

valleynative
valleynative

@dogon Once again, you're thinking in absolutes.  Sometimes the victim shares the blame.  Sometimes only a little.  Sometimes a considerable amount.  If I leave a rifle in the bed of my truck parked in a bad neighborhood, and it gets stolen, I have to take a lot of the blame.

valleynative
valleynative

@dogon Firearms, when stolen, automatically become firearms in the hands of criminals.  That's a bad thing.   Money falling into the hands of drug addicts is not as much of a problem to society.  Again, degrees of severity.  

What's reasonable is going to depend on a lot of factors, but in the metropolitan Phoenix area, its something more than locked doors.

dogon
dogon

@valleynative @dogon I get it. However, once a burglary has occurred how is  any outcome  any fault of the homeowner? If they steal money, buy drugs and overdose, is that somehow the homeowners responsibility? You may have your guns secured in safes which are subsequently secured themselves, but it isn't unheard of to have a safe be accessed. Trust me with the tools available and a short amount of  time it can be done. Where do you draw the line? Isn't locking your doors and windows a reasonable precaution? 

valleynative
valleynative

@dogon You've got to learn to think in degrees, rather than absolutes.  The important concept is "reasonable precaution".  My sharp knives and chemicals are out of the reach of children, which is reasonable enough precaution for them.  Firearms are an attractive target for burglars, and have a serious potential for harm to society in their hands, so owners have to take more care in securing them.  

dogon
dogon

@valleynative @dogon So do you keep your steak knives in there too?  Household chemicals? Of course not.  You really shouldn't be blamed if someone who decides to make a poor decision gets injured (or worse) when you have done NOTHING wrong.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public John, if somebody enters my yard and climbs on my ladder without my permission and falls and breaks his leg, guess who's paying their medical bills.  That's an extreme case, but you do have responsibility for things that people are able to do with your belongings even without your permission.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative Yes, it does.  Again, if it was a child living in the house it would be 100% different story.  If they were invitees also a 100% different story.  The fact that someone broke into the home and stole the homeowner's property in my opinion puts the onus 100% on the person/people breaking in.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative   I'm sorry that you don't like the logical implication inherent in your comments.  But what you're saying is that the homeowner is responsible for the theft of everything in the home not secured in a safe.  They steal a TV - homeowners fault for not putting teh TV in a safe.  They steal the computer - homeowners fault for not putting the computer in the safe.  And the further extension of that is that it really isn't secure just locked in a safe, it really needs to be locked in a safe deposit box in a bank if it is to be really secure so just keeping it in a gun safe is negligently insufficient.  Sorry if I'm not willing to blame the homeowner for someone illegally breaking in and stealing the homeowners property

valleynative
valleynative

@dogon dogon, like everything else in life, there are degrees of responsibility.  The more you do to secure your firearms, the less blame applies.  My floor safe is bolted into the concrete foundation.  My handgun safe looks like it's just sitting on a shelf, but it's bolted to a steel plate that is, in turn, bolted into the foundation.

The kids were 100% wrong, but that doesn't mean they take 100% of the blame.  

dogon
dogon

@valleynative @JohnQ.Public  So if, like has happened before, they stole the entire safe and broke into it later then killed someone the homeowner would have no fault?  I really don't see your point. The kids were 100% wrong for getting into the situation.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public No, John, what you're applying to my words is not what we call "logic".   If I fail to secure something as valuable and dangerous as a handgun, I am irresponsible.  No form of "logic" can stretch that to mean that it's ok for you to take it because I didn't secure it responsibly.  It simply means that there is a (much smaller) share of the blame for me, too.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@valleynative The broader implications of your comments, though, are that I have no right of security in my own home.  The broader implications are that its the homeowner's fault that people illegally stole his property because he only kept it locked up in his hourse and didn't put it into a safe.  Your logic suggests that its OK for me to come into your home and simply take whatever I want to take that you haven't secured in a safe.  Because you haven't secured it in a safe, according to your logic, its OK for me to take it.  Substitute any other object for for gun (so you take the gun out of the equation) in each of your comments and its pretty clear that you are blaming the homeowner for the burglary.  That is a pretty simple concept for me to reject.

valleynative
valleynative

@JohnQ.Public The world isn't as simple as you'd like it to be.   Blame rarely falls 100% on one person.  The homeowner should have had the guns in safes.  The State should have provided gun safety education, the parents should have taught these felons right from wrong, the kids shouldn't have stolen the guns, the girl shouldn't have pointed a gun at a friend, let alone point it and pull the trigger.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@cassityg32 Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.  Up above you were blaming the homeowner for not securing his guns against these (alleged) burglars but now you're blaming the girl.  Which is - the fault of the homeowner or the fault of the (alleged) burglar?

valleynative
valleynative

@cassityg32 While the death of a felon is far from heartbreaking, the more general point is that too many people die or are injured or at least put embarrassing holes in their walls because they don't have proper gun-handling training.  Even people who are so blindly afraid of firearms that they don't believe that others should be allowed to own them could benefit from learning how to unload one the RIGHT way.

cassityg32
cassityg32

@valleynative @JohnQ.Public I agree 100% what is with these posts? "If the girl had had proper training this could have been avoided"WTF?

valleynative
valleynative

@ExpertShot  nonsense. There are too many guns already in circulation for any modification to new guns to have much impact.  The "modification" that would do the most good is education.

ExpertShot
ExpertShot topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @eric.nelson745 @valleynative Guns don't kill people, people kill people, unless it's by accident then God kills people - what a bunch of nonsense!  Guns are dangerous - require gun makers to make them safer.  There are literally hundreds of modifications to the manufacturing process gun makers could do to make them safer - but they won't because of the numbnuts at the NRA!

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@eric.nelson745 @valleynative @JohnQ.Public Don't think that's what valley native meant, I think he meant that no one should have to go through life feeling the weight of being responsible for the death of a close friend in the broader, general sense.    I think everyone who's posted this morning thinks she should be held accountable for both the burglary and the death.

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