Would Arizona's Newest Proposal for Guns in Schools Ever Stop a Shooter?

Categories: Morning Poll
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Attorney General Tom Horne's suggested response to the Newtown, Connecticut massacre of schoolchildren has been proposed at the state Legislature.

Republican Representative David Stevens' House Bill 2656 allows a school's "principal or another designee" access to a gun on school grounds, in case of an emergency.

See also:
-Lock and Load, Lunch Lady: Bill for Gun Access in Schools Applies to Any Employee
-Tom Horne Wants Gun Access for One Trained Official at Each School

The bill calls for "a school district or charter school employee who has been approved and designated by the school district governing board..." -- in other words, damn near anyone -- to have access to a gun that's kept on school property, locked away in the case of a gunman at the school.

Right off the bat, we can think of plenty of situations in which this would be an utter failure. For starters, as multiple -- somehow, multiple -- commenters mentioned, the person with the key to access the gun could be taking a huge dump while there's a shooting going on inside the school.

What if the lunch lady is the person with access to the gun, but people are getting shot up on the other side of the school? By the time someone informs her that there's a shooting, she drops the chicken nuggets, and runs to the other side of the school, it could be way too late.

Or, as our colleague Ray Stern suggested, there's someone who doesn't have access to the locked safe, but they're standing right next it, and could respond to the shooting nearly immediately. Too late.

The point is, could you imagine this bill ever, ever being heralded as the piece of legislation that stopped a mass shooting at an Arizona school, because someone got to the gun, and iced the shooter, before they killed anyone?

Cast your vote below:



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65 comments
JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

Better yet, lets simply provide better funding for School Resource Officers in all schools.  That way we have a POST-certified law-enforcement officer WITH A GUN on campus at all times AND when that SRO isn't engaged in a shoot out with bad-guys on campus, the SRO can help administrators develop emergency plans, be actively engaged with students, offer early intervention and interdiction services when appropriate, offer community resources when appropriate, serve as a liaison between school staff and city staff, and provide all of the other services that a good SRO can provide.

ExpertShot
ExpertShot topcommenter

Anti-gun people?  I haven't seen ONE organization that is out to ban guns - how do we have a conversation with people who are lying and trying to mischaraterize the other side from the get go?  There are people who may be "anti-gun" but no organization that I know of in the US is "anti-gun".  That's bullship. 

Kimberly Dawn James
Kimberly Dawn James

Hell no! Teachers, students, and parents have enough to worry about as it is. All it would take is one teacher to forget to properly lock up a gun for tragedy to strike..... and if the gun was properly secured how effective would it be if there were a need to actually use it? I think it's just a really bad idea.

Kal Varnson
Kal Varnson

NO. I have been teaching for the last 13 years and I say emphatically, NO.

ExpertShot
ExpertShot topcommenter

I've been conducting drone security missions over the elementary school near my home ever since the Newtown shootings.   Got a little battery operated heliplatform and camera and a computer operated guidance system from the local RC shop. Works good.  Perhaps we can have a drone operator at each campus that can be there when people on foot can not.  No weapons of course but can catch perps looking suspicious and alert the police and principle to initiate a lockdown!  That would be significantly less dangerous than arming and training school personnel and put the responsibility where it lies - on our officials.  Most campuses have fixed cameras now anyway.

Fuzz Milenko
Fuzz Milenko

I think conceal carry should be allowed with a permit.

Todd Amundsen
Todd Amundsen

Simple. Remove "gun free zones" and allow those with concealed carry permits carry on school grounds.

Don Blank
Don Blank

Kens been snorting gun powder

Josh Smusz
Josh Smusz

I agree, Ken gets to win this one.

Tyburn Gallows
Tyburn Gallows

I think Ken won with that amazing poem, although he did lose the meter after a while. I guess the new poetry the kids are doing these days doesn't need meter!

alwesley
alwesley

Is it possible, yes. Is it likely, no. Do We want a non trained teacher in charge of pointing a gun at and around kids even in a bad situation? Most people get shot with their own guns when they bring out a gun in an emergency. Sounds like we need to keep looking for a better remedy.

Tyburn Gallows
Tyburn Gallows

Move the prisons into the schools into the colleges into the brigs into the shelters into the mental hospitals.

Ken Kay
Ken Kay

Sadam Obam bin Hitler Illegal Alien / muslim lover / drone killing Idiot / lets Americans DIE / sends F-16's to his muslim brotherhood / lets Kill Americans cause we can / have Our military fire on Americans / get all the guns so Americans can't defend themselves / doing all he can to Destroy this country / should have been IMPEACHED a long time ago. He needs to be IMPEACHED and sent packing to Kenya or His muslim brotherhood before there is NOTHING left of this country

Josh Smusz
Josh Smusz

move the prisons into the schools into the colleges into the brigs into the shelters

Tyburn Gallows
Tyburn Gallows

Move the prisons into the schools into the colleges into the brigs!

Nakebia Fluellen
Nakebia Fluellen

No! It does and will not...It will actually do the opposite

Josh Smusz
Josh Smusz

move the prisons into the schools into the colleges

Sam Beckett
Sam Beckett

Yeah, lets turn the schools into gun battle zones. Lets train our teachers, students and other faculty in martial arts, situational awareness, and positive/constructive conflict resolution. Oh, but that would require a budget, and people to actually care about their kids more.

Josh Smusz
Josh Smusz

Move the schools into the prisons!

Corey Lee Busboom
Corey Lee Busboom

how about one Gun PER CLASSROOM , and a GUN CLUB, and a class teaching gun literacy, most people dont know the difference between Semi auto and bolt action

Easkey Stewart
Easkey Stewart

The psyche throws us all into a "Mad Max Video Game" The GOP are not great thinkers!

valleynative
valleynative

The survey is totally dishonest.  The point isn't to "ice the shooter before he kills anyone".  It's to reduce the likelihood that somebody would try to shoot up a school, and to minimize the carnage if anybody does.



valleynative
valleynative

Having armed employees on campus won't do much to stop a shooting, but it would be tremendously more effective than banning certain types of rifles and large magazines and forcing law-abiding citizens to report all private gun sales.   Rifles are the least effective weapon for use in a school.  Large magazines only matter if you also outlaw pockets to carry spares.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

tell Horne to try to get to, and unlock a safe while panicking because someone is shooting up the place around them. i doubt he will get the combo right.  not to mention, do you know how hard it was to try to get into the Aurora theater when that happened? you have a crowd of 50 people running one way and you are trying to navigate your way through them? you end up trampled. nobody is going to move aside for the unknown person that may or may not be going to unlock the gun safe when their own hides are at risk.  bad plan all around

marcy
marcy

@JohnQ.Public 


Better yet, do nothing.


Because nothing needs to be done, including wasting money putting a cop in every school.  There isn't a problem that needs solving.

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

Like this situation from a story in the Arizona Republic, "A 13-year-old student was taken to the hospital Tuesday morning after coming to school drunk, according to the Phoenix Fire Department.  Phoenix fire crews responded to a caller from Kyrene Akimel A-al Middle School, located on 32nd Street and Pecos Road, who said a boy who appeared to be drunk, was awake, but not alert, officials said.  A staff member noticed the student appeared in need of medical attention, said Nancy Dudenhoefer, a district spokesperson.  The student was taken to the school’s health center and evaluated by a district nurse, who determined that he needed additional assistance, Dudenhoefer said."  No shoot-out, no need for a gun, but a situation in which a good SRO could have been helpful.

valleynative
valleynative

@ExpertShot Did I miss something? The only reference on this page to "anti-gun" that I find is mine, and I wasn't referring to any group being out to ban guns.   So who, exactly is doing the lying and mischaracterization?  Being anti-gun doesn't mean you want to ban them completely, and referring to "anti-gun people" doesn't even imply that they are an organized group.


JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@ExpertShot Great idea, accept I'd put some Hellfire missles on those babies and let 'em fly!  Either that, or what you're doing is really creepy.

jonnyquest
jonnyquest topcommenter

@ExpertShot Ah. So now you're ExpertDrone?

valleynative
valleynative

@alwesley It's not a good solution for many reasons, but not for yours.  The armed employee would not be untrained.  (I suspect you overestimate the marksmanship training police officers receive.)Yes, absolutely,  if some maniac is shooting at my child, I want anybody available who has undergone marksmanship and shoot/don't shoot training to be shooting at that maniac.  The chances of a child being hit by mistake are less than the chances of them being shot by the maniac who is actually aiming at them.

david_saint01
david_saint01 topcommenter

@valleynative lets be honest..if someone is that die hard to kill do you really think the presence of a gun is going to stop them from trying?? If the person is unstable, rational thinking is the last thing on their minds...

JohnQ.Public
JohnQ.Public

@danzigsdaddy You've got it all wrong.  The gun will be in a glass enclosure with red letters on the front saying "In case of emergency break glass."

david_saint01
david_saint01 topcommenter

@danzigsdaddy my thing is, whats to stop the person with the gun access from being jumped and the gun taken from them? In that instance, a gun wouldnt have to be brought to school it would already be there! just a hypothetical, but one that needs to be examined thoroughly. 

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy There are some excellent quick-access safes available that don't require that you remember a combination.  My home defense guns are always in safes, and I know that in a perceived emergency, with women screaming that somebody is trying to break in, I can have a gun in hand in seconds.

Bnbk
Bnbk

@danzigsdaddy Should we really expect the nutjobs running our state to ever actually come up with any meaningful legistlation ? Business as usual,I'm afraid .

valleynative
valleynative

@david_saint01 @valleynative "reduce the likelihood" is not the same as "eliminate the chances".  There is no way to completely stop these people.  Certainly not by eliminating one poor choice of weapon.

valleynative
valleynative

@david_saint01 @danzigsdaddy I don't think the plan is for the person to be carrying the gun at all times.  If it's locked in a safe, how do you jump them and take it unless you already have a weapon?

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy Generally, anything Joe announces is intended to get his name in the papers to impress his gullible supporters.  Whether or not it's actually of any benefit to anybody but himself in inconsequential.


danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@jonnyquest another problem we have is half-assed plans that everyone seems to have and wants to implement without thinking it through all the way. one in particular would be Joe's training for the posse. we have Steven Seagal coming out here and devoting about 4-5 hours for a group of about 50 people. he gives these people the impression that they are now prepared to take on a armed assailant with just 4-5 hours of training. that is irresponsible. when it takes SWAT members constant training and constant honing of their skills (and they still are not 100%% effective) what chance do people with minimal training have? i think that plan that Joe and Steve are implementing is only going to put the people they trained into a situation they are not prepared for and is unnecessarily putting them at risk as well as the people they think they are protecting. if  Seagal and Arpaio were serious about their plan, they would have it as CONSTANT training, not just a one time class. to me that is a half-assed idea and implementation of a plan. i shot competitively, it is something that takes constant practice to stay in trim, not to mention the years it took to get to that level

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@jonnyquest i agree with you, the background checks arent going to stop but maybe a few people. the mental health care system is a joke and i feel it definitely needs to be enhanced, revamped or what ever. that people like Adam Lanza, Jared Laughner and many others slip through the cracks is where a big problem lies. there arent enough trained people to recognize or identify problem cases, and those that are identified really arent treated or monitored properly. some of the people floating around unchecked just need one little push and we have another problem like the Arthur Harmon incident recently or even other cases.

jonnyquest
jonnyquest topcommenter

@david_saint01 @valleynative @danzigsdaddy Backround checks are like jacking off. Doesnt accomplish much, but you do feel better.

jonnyquest
jonnyquest topcommenter

@david_saint01 @valleynative @danzigsdaddy The NRA execs aren't the only ones against it. Backround checks are like jacking off. Doesn't accomplish much but you do feel better. Adam Lanza would have passed a backround check.

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy "if the safe is easy enough..." You should do a little research.  Gun policy should not be based on conjecture and the experience you've gained from watching TV dramas.

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy @valleynative Take an Abnormal Psychology class, spend time volunteer on a mental health ward, and then get back to me to have an intelligent conversation about what "mental illness" means.  The real world isn't like what you see on TV.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@valleynative "mental illness"  doesnt indicate a problem to you? the whole thing of mental illness is describing a deviation from normal thought processes or reasoning

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy "mental illness" does not mean "dangerous".  The bill you want to eliminate leaves that determination up to experts. What's the problem with that?


danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

David, my bad, not so much "new laws" but changing ones we have will help. one for instance would be eliminating Brewers bill to allow the restoration of gun rights to people with mental illness histories. Mindy McCreedy is a fine example of recurring mental illness and how it can go

valleynative
valleynative

@david_saint01 @valleynative @danzigsdaddy You've got no weapon, and you "jump them" for the key or combination?  Sounds like a well thought-out plan.  The point is that it would be easier to just bring your own gun, particularly since you wouldn't know which employee has access.


danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@david_saint01 i am agreeing with you. there are too many problems with the plan. if the safe is easy enough to get into while panicking....its easy for someone else to get into also. i am a big gun fan, but i also agree there need to be better ways to regulate. and new laws is one way to do that

david_saint01
david_saint01 topcommenter

@valleynative @danzigsdaddy i think background checks on all sales should be initiated...and i think its funny the NRA execs are the only ones against it, especially since several gun company owners are members of the Board...

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@valleynative i am a big time gun advocate. i see flaws all over this plan, the same as i see flaws in the posse plan. i see many good things to a REAL cop with real training and real experience be the ones doing the security though

david_saint01
david_saint01 topcommenter

@valleynative @david_saint01 @danzigsdaddy you jump them and either get the combo or the key...not really a stretch of the imagination man...its just a hypothetical anyways, but still a valid one even if it could never happen...if we are going to do this, lets make sure to analyze each and every scenario before we do...rather than find out the hard way what was missed...I equate it to Apollo 1...no one even thought of a fire on the landing pad during tests...but it happened. 

Danzig, this isnt towards you just a hypothetical...if a crazed person wants to get at something, they will do it..its not like these people are trained in martial arts or anything...and dont get me started on Seagals training volunteers, which will be worthless in the end...

valleynative
valleynative

@danzigsdaddy @valleynative It's not a plan that would ever be expected to do much good at all, as I've said before.  In a few cases it might help.  Aren't the anti-gun people the ones saying "if it saves just one life, it's worth it"?   My whole point is that as weak as this plan is, it would be far, far more effective than blocking the sale of certain types of new rifles, or anything else the Administration has proposed.


danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@valleynative and another way of looking at it would be, if I am between you and the safe, how do you get the gun?

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