Paul Babeu, Pinal County Sheriff, Tosses Armed Militia into Tense Border Environment With Poorly Trained Border Patrol Agents

Warning.jpg
A recipe for disaster:

U.S Customs and Border Patrol's lax policies over the use of lethal force.

Inadequately trained agents sent to patrol rough desert terrain blanketed with fear and tension that's fueled by potential danger.

A border-hawk sheriff putting weapons in the hands of unpaid civilians who want to play detective in the desert and hunt down drug smugglers.

See also: Cloaked Brutality: The Feds Bury Border Patrol Abuses of Immigrants See also: Mexican Smugglers Exploit the Corrupt Reputation of U.S. Border Officers See also: Border Patrol Agent Killed, Another Wounded in Shooting Near Bisbee See also: Homeland Security probing Border Patrol's use of force policies

On October 2, the life a U.S Border Patrol agent was tragically snuffed by a fellow agent, and, men in that same uniform, on October 10, riddled the body of a teenager in Mexico with bullets for throwing rocks at them.

Unnecessary and avoidable deaths?

Coalición de Derechos Humanos (Human Rights Coalition), a Tucson-based immigrants-rights organization, says yes.

In a statement, the group says that "even tragic and unnecessary shooting of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Nicholas Ivie illuminates the dangerous policy of indiscriminate and irresponsible use of deadly force" that goes beyond a lack of training.

Ivie was killed during a blind shootout with his fellow agents, a tragedy that bolsters the group's claim that use of deadly force is the default policy for agents and that they routinely "opened fire on individuals without confirming their identity or whether a criminal act was being committed."

As New Times reported in 2010, and against in 2011, lack of training is also a major issue -- one that even federal officials and union representative admit.

Here are excerpts from those articles:

James Tomsheck, of the CBP's Office of Internal Affairs, admitted to lawmakers during the congressional hearing "that many of those persons hired during CBP's hiring initiatives . . . may very well have entered into our workforce despite the fact that they were unsuitable."
--Cloaked Brutality, 2010
Shawn Moran, vice president of the labor union that represents Border Patrol agents, tells New Times that standards dropped in a rush to meet hiring goals.

Moran says trainees "really had to screw up to get fired or get thrown out of a [Border Patrol training] academy."

The running joke in those days, he says, was: "No trainee left behind."

Only it wasn't much of a joke. New agents graduated from the academy before background checks were completed. Even those who ultimately got rejected for failing their background checks walked away with knowledge of how the agency operates -- which could be shared with smugglers for a price.

Moran says, too often, the prevailing attitude among agency officials was: "It's a warm body."

CBP Commissioner Alan Bersin testified before a Senate committee in June ... [and] said the "accelerated hiring pace under which we operated between 2006 and 2008 -- and, frankly, the mistakes from which we are learning -- exposed critical organizational and individual vulnerabilities within CBP."

Bersin conceded that the massive influx of new hires in that past few years has left the federal agency with a workforce that is "younger, less experienced, and in need of seasoned supervisors."

The March 2011 report by the Government Accountability Office cited an ongoing weakness in border security stemming from a "lack of focus and complacency, lack of supervisory presence, and lack of training."

--Corrupt Agents, 2011

And given that environment, even more serious questions arise about Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, along with Senator Sylvia Allen, forming an armed posse of volunteers and dispatching them into the desert to hunt drug smugglers.


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62 comments
sarum
sarum

A candidate for Pinal County Sheriff named J. T. Ready supposedly killed his family and then himself. An 18 year old stepdaughter was “hiding under the bed” but, for some curious reason, she has not been seen since, no public statements, no photographs, as though aliens had sucked her off the planet. Had the killings been done by Ready, no child would have been under the bed nor would the execution style killings, typical cartel shootings, have been the method used. This was a carefully ordered “hit.” Veterans Today had investigators at the scene of the Ready killings within minutes. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/24/no-one-in-arizona-could-write-this-story-and-live/

bigkahuna33
bigkahuna33

A source on the inside has told me that the majority of these subjects were militia already in the desert doing this stuff and were encountered by the swat team on many occasions.  Rather than fight with them, studboi has asked them to join.  Yes some have military background but these new recruits are not having to go through the posse academy like all the others did and it is unknown what type of background check studboi is doing on these militia people.  Remember jt ready was a militia man and former military.  

 

sarum
sarum

At least the moderators of comments section of "Douglas Dispatch" admits truths that people here deny.  After mutliple postings moderator responded with acknowledgement of the truth and urged working for change. . . . for those of you here in denial about people illegally benefiting from our social safety net.

 

agua prieta citizen wrote on Aug 3, 2012 12:25 PM:

" Its true, the city needs to pay for us who dont have mony. I wish i could get more mony in my check every month from my po box there in douglas. We the poor people need the help, just cuz we dont work doesnt meen u dont have to support us!! Viva la raza! "

 

agua prieta citizen wrote on Aug 7, 2012 10:44 AM:

" I am a resident of the united states and the government owe me because i am here. I live in agua prieta because the u.s. doesn't give me enough money every month to make my car payment and pay for my cigarettes. Who else is going to pay for my 2012 Cadillac? I need all of the WIC mony i can get and more mony on my Arizona card so that i can buy junk food for my kids. You tax payers should give more to the many people like me in douglas and all of the other border towns in the U.S.

 

Moderator responded below.

 

 Note: the letter abovet is an example of what we deal with as a town on the border. This sentiment will probably never be voiced aloud like this, but we responsible citizens should be aware that it is a sad truth... our system is broken. Vote every year for change. "

 

A border town like Douglas is where you can easily see what is happening in this regard.  There are LOTS  of USPS PO Boxes in towns like Douglas.

 

narizona
narizona

  JACHAHOLIC  very crude attempt at humor...........Is your caps lock stuck? Very well trained indeed! How do you account for them shooting and killing each other is that part of their training? Hey I've a dog that can sniff out a hillbilly at 100 yards and he's barking!

JACHAHOLIC
JACHAHOLIC

BORDER AGENTS ARE WELL TRAINED. THEY ARE INSTRUCTED TO SHOOT ANY BODY WHO ATTACKS THEM. THEIR DOGS HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO LOOK FOR ILLEGAL PEOPLE BY SNIFFING FOR ARIEL WASH SOAP.

robert_graham
robert_graham

Lethal force is necessary because just like it is said, if you don't want to get burned don't play with matches. In other words, if people don't want to get shot they should not throw rocks or shoot at Border patrol agents. Do you complende?

marcy
marcy

I think it's great that some of the wingnuts will be out gunning each other down in the desert.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

this is the crap i said was going to happen after Ivie got shot. I served in the military, i have family that work in homeland security, i still have family serving in the military. anybody with any common sense, military training, law enforcement training or anybody with serious firearm experience (not just some idiot who thinks that since he has a gun he is John Wayne) will tell you this is a horrible idea. there will be accidental shootings (of each other) as well as many other other problems that will come of this. forming a armed citizen brigade or posse has not been a good idea EVER. it may start out fine, but will always  develope into a problem. look at Arpaio's posse and the problems that have come from it. people will overstep their authority, people will get power mad (YPS- i am not inferring to all of them), if we cant prevent things like that from happening in the military, what makes you think it wont hapeen in a group of people with chips on their shoulder that couldnt gain entry to the military or law enforcement for some reason? not only isit a poor idea, it is being implemented by a person who does NOT have a good track record for managing his people already. that is just making this recipe for disaster even more dangerous. i have extensive fire arms training, shot cometitively (and have won many matches), i also HAVE been in firefights and combat, and i tell you from experience, THIS WILL NOT WORK WELL.  for  people like Flyer, YPS, Tommy Collins, and USwar-veteran, you all have degrees of experience and knowledeg of what i am talking about and hopefully see what i am saying here. for people like JAF, (not trying to be insulting here), please, go find someone with background like mine or the people i mentioned, and sit down with them and have them explain just how many things can and WILL go wrong with this plan of Babue's. i understand you want to do something about the border, but this is absolutely the worst way to go about securing it. Tommy, Flyer and USwar-veteran will agree with a lot of times, YPS will disagree with me a lot of times (but he does present a good argument) and JAF will always say the opposite of what i say, but one thing we should all be able to see in this scenario.......is the DANGER of it.  people should be out in a combined effort to stop the wreckless and deadly formula that Babue is trying to implement.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

Babeu, like the late and not so great Larry Dever, has an obsession about illegal immigration. Babeu, like America's self-proclaimed toughest sheriff, is a narcissist who loves to see his name and photo in the media. This is an incredibly stupid idea. We already know what kind of creepy people are attracted by this foolishness. And if Sylvia Allen is behind it, it is a bad idea.tainted by stupidity.

dethompson112
dethompson112

Lets not forget, if one of these POSSE Members are killed Or wounded the Lawsuit that will follow! Reason inadequate training and protective equipment: ie Body Armour not designed to stop High Velocity Round (Rifle), Snake Gaiters, High Top Boots, etc. Remember the Regular Deputies are not even equipped with High Velocity Vests! I can even see Employers Firing these POSSE Members as they could perceive the inherent danger to the employee while not working! It is jeopardizing their current employment! Employers have a reasonable expectation of employees not to deliberately place themselves in harms way while not on the clock. Arizona is a right to work State and the employer can fire you for any reason at all ! The Liability issue alone to the County is to High to contemplate. Since Sheriff Babeu can not send National Guard Troops he now wants to send Civilians out to an area He has stated to as extremely dangerous! Current PCSO Deputies and POSSE Members who did attend the Academy only qualify annually! The Current PCSO Deputies receive very little additional training. The Deputies have all currently been trained in First-Aid. Guess Babeu wants to get the practical application of First-Aid in by treating Deputies, Civilians and Illegals because of these 100 hour trained Law Enforcement Professional POSSE Members! Nothing Like Creating Job Security is there! Give them a weapon to commit a crime and give them practical experience in First-Aid all at the same time!

sarum
sarum

Part of me dreads this - oh let me count the reasons . . . and part of me knows that this is what has to happen too.   I really cannot comment on Babeu.  I don't know him personally.  What I have learned of him is disturbing but some would say that says alot more about me than it does about him.   Sometimes where there is smoke there is also a fire and other times when lots of people are talking - it means somebody stepped out and did something right for once - or hugely wrong.

Flyer9753
Flyer9753 topcommenter

I bike, hike and motorcycle in the areas of Pinal county they are talking about.

 

I can't want till one of these wanna be's try to stop and question me, it's gonna get interesting.

 

I wonder how fast they can run? :)

sarum
sarum

The current FBI claim is that Ready, though quite dead, is still under “active” investiation for his work with the NSM, National Socialist Movement. A cursory examination of the group finds several key members to be active FBI agents under childishly poor cover, their political manifesto to be almost entirely “Ron Paul” except for key and quite bizarre additions that seem to have been carelessly added to make them look like “racist fruitcakes.” http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/05/04/exclusivebreaking-arizona-massacre-jt-readys-email-prediction-of-doom/ Most of us are like the blind men describing the elephant; and everybody has a piece of the truth.

Bnbk
Bnbk

 @bigkahuna33

 JT Ready was a disgraceful,dishonorably discharged loser.The world is a much better place without him.

jon49417
jon49417

 @sarum BS # 1 WIC doesn't buy 'junk food'..  at least get your slurs some accuracy.  you probably meant food stamps.  even bigots can have a point w/o lying.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @sarum You are indeed a sad case, Goober. Those are troll comments by tea baggers and other wingnuts too dumb to understand how silly they sound. Kinda like.....you. The Douglas Dispatch, by the way, Goober, is still referred to by locals as the "Daily Disgrace," despite it having been turned into a weekly newspaper several years ago that people buy for the TV listings and coupons. Its circulation went into a tailspin because no one takes it seriously.  Nice try. But you missed the mark. Got any other pearls of wisdom you care to offer? How about some hard-hitting comments from the Sonoran Alliance - you know, the ones that say exactly the same thing that were in the troll postings you are gullible enough to offer as evidence from the Douglas fish-wrap? I'm still laughing that you are dense enough or gullible enough to take them as real.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

 @JACHAHOLIC its only the well trained officer that goes out in the dark and starts spraying bullets at his own people, and dies in the crossfire with 2 other well trained officers, right? and big news for you, the rookie.....the one who wasnt "WELL TRAINED" is the only one who wasnt hitting or hit by friendly fire. so evidence would point to quite the contrary of your claim

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

 @JACHAHOLIC explain the Ivie shooting. who opened fire? oh, yeah....the well trained officers that were shooting at one another. GREAT TRAINING. 

narizona
narizona

jaf if you don't want people to know how illiterate you are................... don't open your mouth! You take away all doubt        complende?What the hell does comlende mean?

sarum
sarum

@JoeArpaioFan There was a case in TX a couple years ago of a young teen in Mexico who daily came to the border to throw rocks at BP in order to distract them from pursueing border crossers. I don't know if he received pay for this activity or not. One day he was doing exceptionally well with his rock throwing at an agent during an active pursuit and the agent turned around and shot him dead. There was a huge outcry of unequal force against a child. My stance is that rocks can easily kill. The government of Mexico demanded that the US turn this BP agent over to them for prosecution. I have heard nothing since? Are you aware of this case? Can you tell us what happened as in dead the US BP employee get shipped to Mexico for some of their justice? Did he lose his job? I would like to know.

jon49417
jon49417

 @marcy like the Eastwood movie where he pits the Rojas against the (?) other side. a little unknown noise and they will be lighting each other up like the 4th.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

 @marcy i know, gives you a warm feeling doesnt it. and it all so lends credence to the theory that nature helps eliminate its own mistakes

sarum
sarum

@mikefrombisbee I know people from your area who have been "obsessed" with this issue for decades. I have family that moved from your area despite generations of their dead buried there - because even as Mexicans (of the citizen variety) the situation is too hot, too dangerous, too uncomfortable - even for bi-lingual brown folk. And they aren't worried about LEO's. They feel targeted by the new residents. Don't get me wrong. They are sympathetic but the overt hatred against US loyal Mexicans, US raised Mexicans is too much. Even my own offspring here in town no longer identifies as Mexican because for kids the pressure is disgusting and entails targeting anybody who is not Mexican and having little to nothing to do with them - iow, losing all your friends who are not MEXICAN or using your relationship with non-Mexicans to do crime on them. And we live in an area where the races mix. In our neighborhood you do not see groups of Mexican kids and groups of white kids and groups of black kids separate - all of the kids mix except for the reconquista trained politically Mexican children. Even the foreign born kids of all races & colors mix more & better than the Mexicans. This is why I have concluded that Mexicans and similar in thought from other nations are not welcome additions to this nation. They are the racist, xenophobic nativist ones. When I was young we welcomed people from any nation and were thrilled to meet, dine, talk, learn, share. Today's immigrants do not want to meet, dine, learn, talk, share - nothing. It seems that all of them really care nothing for the US people and have very low opinion of us. I do not care if they are Polish, Romanian, Chinese or Mexican; if that is the way they feel I want them to go home. Honestly I cannot understand, if you live in Bisbee any length of time and are familiar with what goes on in your county - how you can call it an "obsession?"

sarum
sarum

@dethompson112 We had a handsome young black quarterback on high school football team. Seemed like a fantastic young man in every way. Friendly, polite, intelligent, gracious. Don't know the details but word is that he decided all on his lonesome - to take out a big drug dealer. If he had been successful I would never have known about it. The school would not let him back in because when the cartel decides to retaliate students would be at risk. His family had to sell home and move. So that is the employment hazard I see - fear of retaliation at the workplace. Also as an aside I really wish I knew more of this story about what happened to the kid up the street. How many citizens are taking action like this on their own? Why? Is this kid's life ruined? Is he an unsung hero?

sarum
sarum

 @jon49417 Not a bigot.  Food Stamps, WIC, SNAP card, EBT card - yes all I know is its free food on my dime and illegals get it when needy citizens cannot qualify.  That makes the government a bigot.  Also since euro-descent immigrants are forced for decades to prove that they will never need social safety net but brown south of the border immigrants are not held to same standard - who is the bigot?  The government, not me.

sarum
sarum

 @mikefrombisbee  @sarum   The "troll" is merely a person who sees what is going on, sees absolutely no acknowledgement of it, much less proposed solutions and has absolutely no place safe to express the frustration or initiate discussion towards solution.  This is a huge part of the economic mess we find ourselves in as a nation as well as the insolvency of Social Security which has been squeezed from every end starting with Reagan's rape of it for war efforts.  The system was not designed for generous pay-out to those who never put in, nor to be raped for war effort or used as general funds for everything under the sun.  I think the true traitorous trolls are those who not only stifle discussion on this very real problem but even refuse to acknowledge the truth and that is whose agenda and patriotism I question.  Yeah, I mean you, MikefromBisbee.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @sarum  @mikefrombisbee Your beliefs are a fantasy. It's obvious that you don't feel like you belong in a place that has been bilingual and bi-cultural for many generations. There IS no invasion. There IS no great danger. There is NO ethnic tension. I live four miles from the border and don't lock my doors. I live in a community where the standing joke is that the police spend all their time answering animal control calls.I was in Douglas last night with my wife where the population is 90 percent-plus Hispanic. No problems whatsoever. We had a great time at a public event in Castro park. Douglas has a very low crime rate. So does Nogales. Name your family members from generations past in Cochise County who had to leave. I  can quickly tell if you are a shit talker or legitimate. Your anti-immigrant mantra is the same fearful hyperbole that was spoken in the 1840s (anti-Irish) , early 1900s (anti Italians and  eastern Europeans) and 1970s and 80s (anti-Asians). Grow up.  Get over it. Your paranoia is not justified. You can try to dress it up but in the long run you are no better than J.T. Ready in your thinking.

sarum
sarum

I put spacing in to separate my paragraph ideas but once again PNT "VOICENATION" system ignores my commands.

sarum
sarum

@mikefrombisbee Yes I was going to leave this be - as we have strayed from the OT. You appear to have sustained some injury "dearie" judging from your language. You cannot stifle truth forever and you cannot goad me into posting personal identity. I suppose you would even deny the billboards put up by ranchers in decades past attempting to shame the feds for not helping. . . . long before Nappy. Oh yes, they all have/had a tenuous grasp on reality just like me according to you.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @sarum You have yet to get back to the topic, which had to do with untrained nativist zealots running about in Pinal County channeling J.T. Ready. Your comments about immigrants lacking the desire to assimilate are vague generalities based on your less than objective observations. I would hardly call you a credible observer about immigrants. You offer vague personal anecdote as evidence. Open a history book and you might learn someone about history and immigration to this country - about all the foreign language newspapers, about the ethnic neighborhoods where English was not the most common language used. Or, you can hug your cherished myths tightly, click your heels together three times and pretend YOUR version of reality is real. Unfortunately for you it isn't.

 

The troll posting in the Daily Disgrace is indeed a troll, using stereotypes that are commonly applied to blacks rather than Hispanics. Welfare Cadillacs in Douglas? Jeezuz, Mary and Joseph you are one ignorant, gullible Goober.  Have you ever been to Douglas? (Cadillacs are VERY rare in border towns - the twit of a troll who posted those pearls of wisdom on the Daily Disgrace forum doesn't even know what kinds of cars (or pickup trucks) people drive in Douglas. I could care less what you think about anything.  You wrap yourself in mythology, so there's nothing to discuss twith you. If I want to visit Fantasyland I'll go to Anaheim.  You don't know the border and you don't have the facts - you have myth and generalities. And the ultimate indicator of your lack of mental flexibility is your calling those who don't think your way and agree with you less than patriotic.  There is absolutely nothing that you ave offered here that would indicate that you have any standing to question anyone's patriotism, dearie. But we do have ample reason for questioning your tenuous grasp on reality.

sarum
sarum

 @mikefrombisbee  At the time my family reported it to me I was working 60 hours per week, taking care of extremely young and extremely old family with major medical issues and multiple life threatening incidents as well as deaths and reeling between multiple major surgeries myself - so yes, I got it screwed up.  That does not mean all that much in my book but I am sure you will call me "shit-talker" tp eternity.  I have some choice unprintable words for you and your agendae.

sarum
sarum

 @mikefrombisbee You think Mexican kids forcing other Mexican kids to prove how Mexican they are by forcing them to use friendships with non-Mexicans as an entree to commit theft or other crime on them is fantasy?  It is fact and it is ugly and denying it does not solve anything.  Come to my neighborhood and say it to our face, fool.  The only ones who will agree with you will be the ones who do not want to go to juvie or jail for what they have done.   In drugs they say you have to hit rock bottom before you can kick it.  I guess as a society we also will have to hit rock bottom before we can get on the same page - or, until this behavior comes to your door or affects your kids you simply will continue to deny what is going on and call me names?  I hope I witness when it happens to you and then you will be my "comic relief."  Or hey, maybe your kid will be the one going to jail cuz you were in denial.

 

sarum
sarum

 @mikefrombisbee Actually there were so many different languages spoken in the areas that you mention that it was further stimuli to learn common language of English.  Also to get out of the sweatshops and embrace economic opportunity.  Some people intentionally lose entire accent, especially if they come from hated nation with "enemy" status.  Other people are not so pressured.  Some people come before learning 1st language and even if only their immediate family around them speaks that 1st language they will retain accent and word ordering of that language into adulthood.  People from war torn nations also bring the pain & suffering here - fear of spies or retaliation and so prefer English to hide from landsmen they are unsure of.  Then again, the 1st language helps hide the situation from outsiders.  This is a very complex situation.  You make generallizations showing  that you are the Goober.  Especially it was well known that Russian spies would train in regional accents and it took smarts to figure out who they really were.  These days instead of figuring where someone is from by their English we figure where they are from by their Spanish.  It is not nosiness or prejudice - it is to prepare to be polite in acceptable manner and to choose ones' words carefully, Goober.  It seems that Spanish still has many more regional "isms" than English  but in your Goober world all Spanish speaking people are compadres I am sure and no things to step lightly around.  Sure there were/are foreign language papers - for same reasons that I go to Douglas Disgrace as you say on-line - or mi esposa and I look at the current Mayor/City Council and have surprise, old memories, stories - stuff like that.  Sometimes  mi padre would send me for multiple language papers  because he needed to know something for sure.  If they use the same characters as we use here it is easy to figure out most of what they are saying.   Russian, Chinese, Farsi - no.  Also the papers exist because for some the need to translate never stops and reading in English becomes exhausting - easier to read in 1st language.

 

Yes you show me who you are with your insults.   

sarum
sarum

Oh sorry for any typos like "rantic" instead of "frantic." I can't see too well anymore either but just like the dental that I can't afford we have local entities still bragging about helping the poor of Mexico and saying FU to US poor. US poor are laughing stock of world. US poor have had every opportunity to not be poor so they are truly sub-human doncha know? Meandering and disjointed to you I suppose. No, to me it is all part of this same topic. It is very easy to become poor in this country and very easy to judge against the poor until that awful convergence of corporate criminality and ill health or other similar combo happens to you - then you will no longer judge.

sarum
sarum

Show me example where you do not get my point. 1.) Often I am just offering other viewpoint. 2.) Below I show example of potential retaliation at workplace as factor to consider and give example of why to show that an employer might legitimately have fear of drug cartel retaliation in the workplace. Yes I use personal example to make the point. What would you prefer? Why is that disjointed or paranoid or negative? I can be concise and skip the example and many would wonder why I said that - especially those who wish to deny the problems we are having in this regard. 3.)And yes trolls call any opinion or pov or idea they don't like with fat lazy Anglo type comments without knowing any posters identity and if I referred to myself as Anglo my family would scream at me. So yes, instead of supporting sane discussion you support anybody who name calls and insults somebody you disagree with but find fault with the person who chose to front-load stifle the trolls appearing with those comments? 4.) Sometimes I see something I don't understand so I don't write anything in - but I do not judge the person when I have been too lazy to google words and find out what it is they are saying. More than 1 time in recent days I have made a joke with either no response or negative response. Maybe you don't think it's funny or you didn't "get it." I don't know. 5.) Fact. You have very limited knowledge of me. I have no reason to come on here and speak of the positive. The purpose for me, of this place is to learn and share and the topic is not a positive one. What is going on in this nation that affects me personally, my income, my healthcare, my personal physical safety and that of my family and offspring. This is not affecting us in the future or only a possibility - we are suffering NOW. Food & medicine is hard to come by NOW. For almost half of each month we are quite literally food frantic is how I call it. The insurance is paid but we cannot afford to obey doctors orders NOW. There is a direct correlation between the topic at hand and what we are living through so yes, some of us are weary of politely waiting for the rest of you to wake up. 6.) If you were truly "friends" with Mexicans or any other minority you would learn things that would shake your world view. Associates do not upset the status quo in such manner. My family has probably interacted positively with more illegals than you have ever seen so I must reject your small minded mischaracterization of us. We are capable of having mixed beliefs and feelings on this issue while also recognizing that we have a huge problem on our hands too. Do you get me on this or am I being too "negative", "close-minded", "frantic" or "meandering" for you to perceive what I am saying? Since VoiceNation will not consistently honor paragraph spacing I have numbered my points in this response. Is this less "rantic and meandering" for you?

sarum
sarum

@danzigsdaddy Patently false. I have had much fun sharing language/food/customs with immigrants in the past. Times have changed. Both sides are diferent these days. There are reasons for that and it's not all about me no matter how much you try to make it that way. Paranoia? Well on my computer the comments section has not been available so that I could even see new postings timely. Whatever.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @sarum  @danzigsdaddy  @mikefrombisbeeThe person I was referring to (Joe Borane) was a former chief of police and current (at that time) J.P./city magistrate, not mayor. His brother Ray was mayor of Douglas. You need to read more carefully.

danzigsdaddy
danzigsdaddy topcommenter

 @sarum  yes factual, when he got into the irish and italian examples, he was quoting historic facts.  as for refering to your post being paranoid or delusional, i wasnt even going there, but since you bring it up....... your posts are disjointed and all over the place. i dont know what happened to you or your family that makes you seem to come across the way you do (nor do i really want to know, thats your buisiness, not mine). your posts are frantic and meandering and nobody is really understand what you are getting at, so they do seem paranoid . i dont mean to insult you, but i am just stating how you come across. you and your family may have been targeted by racial bias, but not every one else has had such a negative experience. you go on about how you and others must be "just fat lazy anglos" when you do that you are just fueling racial discord. you are painting yourself and others as victims. the only person who can make you a victim is YOU. i am as white as they come and i have not had any experience with hispanics or illegals that have been as negative as you seem to have had, and i most likely wont. i have been friends with many hispanics and even some illegals and not only find your perceptions of them to be jaded and negative, i find them to be very close minded. it is not meant as a slam on you or your family, it is making the observation that you have not opened youself to any positive impact from them though. you will never see the positive of anybody if you only dwell on whatever negative experience you have had.

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @sarum So that's why there were neighborhoods in N.Y. City and other American cities (and Bisbee, by the way) where one didn't hear English spoken while walking down the street or sitting on the front porch? THAT'S why there were so many restaurants and stores that sold ethnic food products? And THAT'S  why there were so many foreign language newspapers published in the U.S. during the first decades of the 20th century?. I hate to tell you this, Goober, but adults VERY RARELY lose their native accents, no matter how long they speak an acquired language. Perhaps YOU should take some linguistics courses to understand how that works - but it quite evident that you prefer to you prefer myth to reality, generality to specifics. First generation immigrants in any ethnic group had varying degrees of success assimilating. Many also had (and have) to deal with the prejudice and bigotry that is not part of your American mythology. Second generation immigrants assimilate into the dominant culture as much as society allows them to.

 

If you actually lived in a border town, as I do, and had worked in several border towns, as I have done and still do, you MIGHT have a better perception of life here. It is you who is blind to reality, who alters facts to reinforce your mythology.

 

You throw out a lot of words based on very little evidence and evidently impress no one on this forum but yourself. You also offer nothing to back up your assertions. That makes you a shit-talker. And a drama queen who adds nothing to the discuss except comic relief. .

mikefrombisbee
mikefrombisbee

 @Bnbk  @sarum He just doesn't know when to stop. The longer he runs off at the mouth the more foolish he makes himself out to be. Another true believe in the great American tea bagger myth.

sarum
sarum

 @mikefrombisbee Those immigrants kissed the ground  when they came.   ALL my family, whatever nations they came from studiously learned English and paid for classes to lose their accent or practiced in their own way.  They WANTED to be US citizens.  They dropped the old ways and adopted American ways - from language to food, medicine, religion and beliefs.  Not true for today's immigrants.  I may think the immigrants of the past, like my family, went a bit too far in dismissing everything from the old country but I also see that some immigrants of today are not going far enough.  This is another discussion that needs to be had in safe environment.  Obviously not with people who throw around JT Ready accusations and sloppily think that perception equals fact 

sarum
sarum

 @danzigsdaddy  @mikefrombisbee "Factual?"  Abstract perceptions such as "paranoia," "beliefs," "fantasy," etc., are hardly factual.  It is as if mikefrombisbee did not even read what I wrote.  Why would my bi-lingual family for generations be characterized as uncomfortable with it in his second sentence?  A family that used to cross the line regularly?  As for ethnic tension - maybe if you reek of money/power everybody smiles for you.  This last is also not factual - just a matter of perception and difficult to prove.  Crime rates?  If you haven't noticed how budgets are fictionalized, financial stats, unemployment stats fudged then perhaps you also are unaware of how crime stats also fudged.  If you go to these towns and see how people live and how much rent/utilities are and then look at the available jobs and how much they pay - it is very clear that there is much unreported income = crime.  And Mike, in one of your other posts on how a former town mayor ended up in jail - that is not quite how I recall it - the crime part real enough but how the bust went down - not quite.

sarum
sarum

Not paranoia. Not fantasy. A politically incorrect truth that is not safe to speak except in hushed tones to family. I will not put my family name on internet but anybody who has lived in area any time knows the name, knows the businesses they owned and operated etc. There has always been various forms of racism going on. I can tell you which white families were always known for racism and I can tell which Mexican families were also prejudice against other Mexicans and did bad things to them. But I will not print it here on internet just to try to prove the reality that so many suffer. I have family there still and they do not need backlash. If there IS no invasion then why is Douglas population so much more Mexican than it was 50 - 80 years ago? And why is it that so few are proficient in English whereas 50-80 years ago everybody did their best to learn English? Is it because they are stupid or because they are militantly refusing to? You can dress it up but it IS an invasion of a people who have been taught some really hateful political theology. And what my kids experience here in town is also not fictional or fantasy. It is a horrible fact. Other family who have left Cochise county have found out what their mixed status means in the Mexican community elsewhere - where the family name is unknown - we know what it is regardless how much you deny it. I liken it to an awful part of the Civil Rights era when African-Americans of mixed race had to prove their loyalty and ideology. The lighter the skin and the redder the hair the more proof they needed to provide. It's the same thing basically. Denial does not help anything get better - in fact it just feeds the smoldering fire whereas a reality check, open discussion in safe manner - can facilitate positive change.

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