Peggy Neely, Who Vows to Strengthen Ethics at Phoenix City Hall if Elected Mayor, Exhibited Questionable Ethics to Help Financially Friendly Developer. UPDATED With Links

Categories: Election 2011
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Peggy Neely, Phoenix Mayoral Candidate
Phoenix mayoral candidate Peggy Neely pledges to rein in the influence of developers at City Hall to strengthen ethics in government -- but certain of her past actions as a public official don't conform with her new political message.

Especially the former councilwoman's dealings with CityNorth, a $1.8 billion mixed-use community in north Phoenix, and its Chicago-based developers, Thomas J. Klutznick Companies.

Neely was an early advocate for the nearly $100 million performance-based tax rebate deal that the Klutznick firm got from the city in exchange for public parking spaces in a CityNorth garage. And, these days, her longtime political consultant, Chuck Coughlin, is the same man who was on the Klutznick's payroll lobbying for the controversial tax incentive. 

Court and city documents obtained by New Times, dated between 2006 and 2010, offer a behind-the-scenes look at how Neely used her political muscle to pressure staff into helping the Klutznicks -- who contributed substantially to her political war chest.

The rare glimpse was made possible because of a lawsuit between two feuding developers.


Gray Development's Bruce Gray filed a lawsuit against Thomas J. Klutznick Companies in 2009, claiming (among other things) that the Klutznicks intentionally thwarted his efforts to build luxury apartments at Desert Ridge, another mixed-use development in north Phoenix that neighbors CityNorth.

As part of that legal action, attorneys deposed key figures -- including Neely, her staff, city planners, and the Klutznicks. They also subpoenaed internal e-mails and reams of other documents.

The crux of the case is that, as master developers at Desert Ridge, the Klutznicks had control over the projects that took root in that 5,700-acre north Phoenix complex that features living spaces, shopping, dining, and entertainment.

The Klutznick brothers, John and Daniel, also were developers of neighboring CityNorth, and they had plans of their own to incorporate posh homes in their development. In an attempt to block the potential competition from Gray, the brothers wouldn't grant approval for his project.

And the Klutznicks worked in tandem with then-Councilwoman Neely to frustrate his attempt to get city approval for his project with 1,162 residential units. Instead, they wanted to cap him at 882.

"Someone had to stand up for the residents," Neely tells New Times, in an attempt to explain her opposition to Gray's project. "We worked with Gray Development to find a way to make sure the neighborhood was protected."

She refers to concerns of some Desert Ridge residents about an increase in traffic that the additional 280 units would generate. 

 
In July 2010, a jury sided with Gray and awarded him a $110 million judgment.

But before that landmark award, as Gray's plans moved through the city's planning process, Neely kept the Klutznicks apprised of his movements within City Hall.

Depositions from Neely and her assistants reveal that they used their personal e-mail addresses to forward internal e-mails regarding Gray to the Klutznicks -- a surefire way to keep the exchanges out of public view. (View e-mails forwarded to the Klutnicks from Neely's office: One. Two.)

In her deposition, Neely claimed that using the city's e-mail system outside of City Hall was "cumbersome" and that such e-mails were "next to impossible to send."

But Neely's assistant, Sarah Dobbins, forwarded e-mails that Neely wanted her to send to the Klutznicks, first from her city account to her personal Yahoo account and then to the Klutznicks. That is, she took the extra step even though she could have sent them easily from her city account.

Despite Neely's calls for "transparency" in city government, the way she and her staff operated almost guaranteed that the e-mails would not be discovered during a public-records request. But it couldn't shield them from a court-ordered subpoena, which is how they were eventually revealed.

As they used private e-mail accounts, Neely's staff members were instructed to use a special code to alert Neely that she had mail waiting for her.

The Arizona Republic reported on that system in 2007, noting that "the protocol tells staff members that after forwarding messages to the AOL account, they should send a subsequent message to peggy.neely@phoenix.gov with the code phrase 'just touching base. see ss.' That told Neely to check the AOL account."

In Dobbins' 2009 deposition, she confirmed that was how business was being done. (View excerpts from the deposition.)

When Gray requested information from the city Planning Department, Neely forwarded an e-mail to John Klutznick that she received from the director of the city's Development Services Department. When Neely wrote a memo to a deputy city manager asking him to revisit development fees that the Klutznicks were expected to pay, she passed that along to the developer. When Gray hired a public-relations firm, she also fired off an e-mail giving the Klutznicks a heads-up.

(Read e-mails that detail exchanges the Klutznicks' had with Neely and her office. One. Two. Three.)

Her involvement didn't end there.

Before Gray's proposal went before the Phoenix Planning Commission on April 5, 2006, Gray and commissioners asked for a legal opinion from the City Attorney on whether Gray had a legal right to develop 1,162 housing units he was requesting.

Apparently, Gray did have a legal right to those units, but the attorney's opinion was never made public.

On March 31, 2006, Daniel Klutznick wrote in an e-mail that he "spoke with the councilwoman's office and...confirmed that the city attorney will not be putting forth an opinion on the approval process as requested by Gray at the last meeting." (View Klutznick's e-mail.)

When the case between Gray and the Klutznicks went to trial, Daniel Klutznick's testimony reveals that Neely told him it wouldn't be public.

"It is true that no written city attorney opinion was ever issued, correct?" Gray's attorney asked Daniel Klutznick.

"Never one that I saw," he replied

"And that was consistent with what Councilwoman Neely had told [you], right, that no city attorney opinion would be issued?"

"I think that's what I relayed here," Klutznick said, referring to the March 2006 e-mail. "But, yes, that's what she told me."

When, for a moment, Klutznick suspected that the legal opinion was going to come out -- and in favor of Gray -- he called Neely, according to his testimony.

"And then you called Councilwoman Neely to say...'I thought you told me that the city attorney wasn't going to issue a report,' right?" Gray's attorney asked Klutznick.

"I think that might be what I said," Klutznick replied. (View an excerpt from his testimony.)

Neely also urged staff to make decisions and recommendations that would benefit the Klutznicks, and put a financial crimp on their competitor, Gray.

"Peggy made it very clear that she is not going to assist Gray in any way," John Klutznick wrote in a January 2007 e-mail to his brother, Daniel, and others in his company. "She told Paul [Katsenes] that she would not lock 2003 rates for Gray but asked Paul to find a way to assist 'the Klutznicks' with impact fees."

Katsenes was the assistant director of Phoenix's Community and Economic Development Department at the time. Also, the city's impact fees, charged to developers to cover growth-related costs, were about to increase. Gray wanted to be locked in at the lower 2003 rate.

Neely wasn't going to let that happen. She made calls to planning and economic development staff to make sure the Klutznicks were given extra considerations.

Klutznick also wrote that she wanted to find a "way to help us, and she asked Paul to find a solution." In that same e-mail, she suggested how the Klutznicks could make the planning staff "move more urgently" on their project.

"She suggested that we bring Grady [Gammage] to our next Development Agreement discussion (the staff respects him and would move more urgently)," Klutznick wrote. (View the e-mail.)

Gammage is a well-known attorney and real estate developer in Phoenix.

Along with the City Attorney's legal opinion that, according to court records, was favorable to Gray's proposal, the city planners also were aboard with his proposal. They recommended supporting his project with more than 1,100 residential units, instead of capping him at 882.

Planning Director Debra Stark testified in her deposition that she received several calls about the planning staff's recommendation, including some from Neely. She testified in 2010 that she felt a lot of "pressure from all different groups," which resulted in her reversing her staff's position.

She acknowledged that this reversal had nothing to do with finding any flaws in Gray's plan, only that she felt "pressure."

And during the Gray/Klutznick civil trial, Gray's lawyer asked, "And from a conversation that you had with Councilwoman Neely...she expressed to you that she hoped that you would revisit the staff's initial determination, correct?"

Stark agreed that Neely had done just that.

Neely admits to New Times that she raised questions about the staff's recommending approval of Gray's larger project. "But if "they didn't agree with me, they could have left it the way it was," she says.

But Stark, feeling that "pressure," issued her new staff recommendation -- dumping Gray's larger project -- in less than 24 hours.

Another city planner said he, too, felt "pressure" and believed that politics played a part in the city's about-face.

As she was helping out the Klutznicks, they were generously funding projects in her district, sponsoring events she was hosting, and even rounding up contributions for her re-election campaign.

And in the middle of the back-scratching stood Chuck Coughlin. While a political adviser to Neely, he lobbied on behalf of the Klutznicks' interest in CityNorth, creating a situation where one of his clients was supporting the other.

The Klutznicks donated nearly $30,000 to her campaign between 2005 and 2009, a bulk of the money coming during time periods that overlap with her helping them by tossing obstacles in front of their competition.

During his deposition in late September 2009, John Klutznick revealed that Neely solicited money from his company.

About her requests for money, he said, "What has come up recently is her fundraising for her reelection." He referred to conversations he'd had with Neely in 2009, the year that she was running to keep her council seat in District 2.

Campaign finance reports show that both John and Daniel Klutznick gave Neely the maximum donations allowed by law. Their spouses and relatives also kicked in max amounts, as did employees of companies associated with CityNorth, such as architectural, engineering, and construction firms.

John Klutznick testified that he personally sent e-mails requesting money for Neely and that the developer's Phoenix office would forward them to her re-election campaign.

He said Neely also contacted him to ask for money for additional soccer fields at the Reach 11 complex, a project that the self-proclaimed soccer mom promoted extensively.

Neely now dismisses both the Klutznicks and Gray as "greedy developers," saying she's moved on to the lofty pursuit of running for mayor.


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65 comments
Concerned Citizen
Concerned Citizen

Phoenix Mayor should not be aligned with any lobbyists. This would rule out Peggy Neeley and Wes Gullett.  Stanton has our vote.

Rick the Prick
Rick the Prick

damn, the lady is fugly.  man, my  ass on its worse day l,ooks better than peggy neely. I guess if shit could walk, talk and breathe, it would look like peggys picture.

Bobby
Bobby

Yep, we could definelty use some of you fanatical people in Los Angeles to clean up all of the corrupt Mexican-American politicians affecting us.

Bobby
Bobby

Huh, Peggy Neely must have been taking lessons on how to be a corrupt Mayor, from someone that already is,l Mayor(Alcalde) of Los Angeles, and ex-gangbanger, Antonio Vilar.

traffichound
traffichound

Jan Brewer just endorsed the crook Neely.. Jan Brewer just became a big question mark?

Azhistory
Azhistory

Neely was my rep, and will never see my vote. Between City North, the road to bullshit and a few other smaller pieces of property she sleezed on, she showed she cared more for her pocketbook and that of her supporters than for those of us she 'represented'. 

Jump4_joy
Jump4_joy

The Klutznick details have been verified through the court case, but you can be sure that the same has been going on with Westcor and their dealings in the North Valley. Neely has always been in the back pocket of these developers and if she is elected as mayor, you can be sure that developers will be running City Hall, the public's voice will never be heard and Phoenix will become even worse than it is in terms of developers desires overwhelming public needs.

Anon
Anon

" And, these days, her longtime political consultant, Chuck Coughlin, is the same man who was on the Klutznick's payroll lobbying for the controversial tax incentive. " Is this the same Chuck Coughlin running sitting in the governor's office running the state? The CCA/ALEC/SB1070/Pearce  Coughlin? While this is going on his cronies the CEO's of the private prison corporations are being driven in a fleet of limos to all the small desert towns to turn them into "prison towns". Truly shameful.  All this should be criminal.

Wake up people!!
Wake up people!!

NO to Neeley, Gullet, coughlin and the private prison corporate CEO's courting Arizona's small, desperate desert towns. STOP Pearce and private prisons in Arizona!

Nikodisias Papalapsuslos
Nikodisias Papalapsuslos

YES , WE CAN...YES , WE CAN...WE WILL WIN IN WAR ON TERROR (30 whities or what are terrorists will never come back alive...thank you lord....aaamen).

What do you mean tragedy! It was just a birthday present for planet apes president !!! That's all ! Feels great to flip hamburgers and hip hop atop of good news...makes you feel vibrant and energized !!!

ARIZONA = UTOYA = GOVERNMENT‘S "AFTERLIFE" CASH & $$ FLASH MOB (there was no shooting in Utoya or Arizona, but tear gas and theater instead on faces of multiculturalism maniacs..your guilt or blame and shame weapon against us and our families in our own countries atop of forceful unemployment during so called "ECONOMIC CRISES" during which third world foreigners are allowed to rape, kill, and still is nothing else but fast way to early retirements for government related criminals/ terrorists...$$$ extra bonuses, and newly issued state identities while calling you a terrorists) !!! http://stateofterror.blogspot.... or http://stateofterror.wordpress...

OBAMA = STALIN = BUSH or USA = SOVIET UNION http://avsecbostjan.blogspot.c... or http://avsecbostjan.wordpress.... Whitie is fighting war on terrorism just to come home and be pronounced as terrorist...turned in Timothy, jobless, homeless ...YESSS, WE CAN...YESSS,  WE CAN...GABBY OPENED HER EYES (Obaminator’s psychotic speech in Tucson = failed “Apocalypse Now“)

WAKE-UP !!! WAKE UP PEOPLE BEFORE IT GETS ALL TO LATE ON PLANET  APES !!! TEARS WON'T DO YOU ANY GOOD !!! AS BUSH STATED "THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE PAID FOR"(to die ) !!

EVEN IF IRAQ WOULD  HAVE BEEN WAR FOR OIL ONLY,  VETERANS WOULDN'T NEVER EVER HAVE TO BE HOMELESS PEOPLE THE WAY THEY ARE AND NOR WOULD OUR PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE ALLOVER THE PLACE THE WAY THEY DO TO VERY TODAY(never ending “war on terror” story). BECAUSE EVEN IF WAR WAS FOR THE SAKE OF MONEY, MONEY SHOULD BE USED  FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS AND NOT WHAT THE CASE IS OR AGAINST WHITES(to destroy us allover the world) !!! You don't really proof for 911, just put  your sht together in your heads...THIS IS PLENTY ENOUGH TO HAVE O(B)SAMA  INDICTED FOR CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST WHITE AMERICAN HUMANITY TOGETHER WITH HIS ZIONIST MASTERS) !!!

Don't worry O(s)bama, you have just saved USA what is lots of Dollars in  your DEBT DEALS as those best of America or Navy Seals would  also grew older and then you already know how it goes...DEAD & ILL = DEBT DEAL !!!

HOW MUCH FURTHER ARE WE WILLING TO GO IN ORDER TO PLEASE VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO DENY US EVEN THE RIGHT TO EXISTENCE(what is to you country without laws or lawless country in respect to your personal rights, but the one that in contrast to your denied basic human rights recognizes you extremely liable when payments are due) !!?

IS IT INDEPENDENCE THAT WE CELEBRATE OR DEPENDENCE (what are your credit card bills or alimony saying about it) !!? HOW IS YOUR DIABETES AND LOST MARRIAGES !!? FORECLOSURES AND  JOB SEARCH !!? THAT IS THE QUESTION TO BE OR NOT TO BE !!! IS IT LAND OF THE FREE OR STATE OF TERROR AGAINST OWN  POPULATION !!? IT IS TIME TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT COLOR ARE THE STRIPES ON OUR STAR SPANGLED BANNER !!! TIME TO DETERMINE WHOSE INDEPENDENCE/AMERICA, WE CELEBRATE TODAY(who wants to erase us and denies us the right to exist) !!! IT IS  IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHOM WE ADDRESS WITH "PRESIDENT" (STOP HUMILIATING YOURSELF) !!!

VOTING POLL:

DO WE NEED MORE PROOFS TO INDICT OBAMA AND BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST WHITE HUMANITY !!?

1)NO, THEY ARE CLEARLY GUILTY AS OIL WAR NEVER EVER WAS REAL ISSUE IN GENOCIDE AGAINST WHITES. REAL ISSUE  ARE FACTS OR WHAT WE WITNESS TODAY WHEN VETERANS  ARE HOMELESS, JOBLESS, KILLED, ETC.

2)NO, AS 911 ALONE AS WELL AS ACTIONS IMPOSED AGAINST  WHITES IN USA (as well worldwide) ARE CLEARLY INDICATING ACTS OF GENOCIDE AGAINST WHITE HUMANITY

3)YESS AS JUST YESTERDAY(for over 15 years to very yesterday), WE (news/media = vacuum world of lies) WERE TELLING YOU THAT UNEMPLOYMENT WAS AT 10% WHILE TODAY ONE IS AT 50% (HOW COME NO ONE QUESTION JOURNALISM LIKE THIS OR  WHAT IS WORLD OF LIES AND DEMENTIA)!

4)I AGREE WITH FIRST TWO ANSWERS ABOVE.  IT IS TIME TO PRESS CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST BOTH ADMINISTRATIONS DUE TO ACTS OF GENOCIDE AGAINST WHITE HUMANITY FOR THE SAKE(SAFETY) OF US AND OUR CHILDREN(DO NOT TURN THEM IN WHITE REFUGEES ON PLANET APES OR WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE WHEN VISITING ABOVE PAGES) !!! 

John Magen
John Magen

Here is further proof that Neely should go.....NO on Neely for Phoenix mayor - YouTubePeggy Neely's decade of city council votes supporting lobbyist Chuck Coughlin's wealthy special interest clients prove that she is the WORST ...www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1FfTkQIQCk

Anon
Anon

Monica, Great investigative and courageous reporting.

Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer
Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer

Anyone who is a puppet for Coughlin/CCA needs to be booted out of office! The small desert towns have been facing an onslaught of public hearings on the ADC/private prison scheme to turn Arizona into a "prison state". Done behind closed doors, last minute hearings when no one is around and with a cloak of secrecy. Out with Neely and those associated with High Ground and First Strategy!

Doug Bittle
Doug Bittle

Poor, pitiful Mustang. All alone here, aren't you? This article was all about facts. Alonzo nailed Peggy's fat ass. You're either Neely or her bitch to think otherwise.

Michael L. Cornelius
Michael L. Cornelius

All of the cuurent City Councilman should be thrown out on their asses over their actions during their respective terms, including the Mayor. In a way, I wish he was not term limited, so that he too could be thrown out! To screw over the citizens and a councilman, or council woman and then ask to be the mayor is a slap in the face of every single resident who has the ability to see through their lies and unethical activity. Neely is really one of the worst that there is. She is in a disgrace and I am sure that she sleeps well at night knowing just how bad she has made this city for it's residents because people like her have no heart. Enjoy your free parking Mrs. Neely. Now, go away and don't bother looking back.

Coz
Coz

What she really meant to say is she's moving on to the next victims, the City of Phoenix, the Maricopa County tax payers and the State of Arizona.

>Neely now dismisses both the Klutznicks and Gray as "greedy developers," saying she's moved on to the lofty pursuit of running for mayor.

Coz
Coz

Typical Arizona politician, don't pay attention to what I do, just to the lies I tell you are the truth.

traffichound
traffichound

Peggy is a scary person.  She belongs behind bars.  Where does she get the courage to operate so brazenly, as if the city was her own private family business.  She scammed all of us.  Monica Alonzo should get a Pulitzer for this expose. 

I was not voting for Peggy anyway based on what I read over the last few months.  If anyone had doubts, they should be certain now that Peggy does not belong in Phoenix politics.

Phoenix Justice
Phoenix Justice

One simple question: Why isn't Peggy Neely under State or Federal investigation for public corruption?

John Magen
John Magen

It is time for Peggy Neely to step down as a candidate for the Mayor of Phoenix. People should email her and the media to demand that she steps down.  The information in this article demonstrates that she violated the law; not the spirit of the law but "the law." Now Neely is caught by her own words and those words of her "developers."  Neely cannot be trusted to be Mayor.  This article is NOT an opinion peice; it is based on sworn testimony in a court of law.  There is no spin here. Neely is guilty of collusion and corruption.  Now "friends of Neely" must now disavow there support of her.   

Tommy Collins
Tommy Collins

The deeper we get into the mayoral race the more disappointed I am about Ms. Neely. I would likely have voted for her a year ago but the forums over the past several months show me a person I now don't really care for. She doesn't think her answers through before making them, and everything she says sounds rehearsed and 'lecturing'. She is campaigning on a promise to create "jobs, jobs, jobs" and yet I've not seen anything from her regarding changes she would make to attract employers to the city, while enticing those here to stay here, in spite of our current political climate.

I am really bothered that she was emailing ANYONE regarding city business on a personal email account.

Transparency in government is extremely important.

It looks like she got caught this time.

Mustang
Mustang

Alonzo, way to write objectively. (I hope you're picking up on my sarcasm.)

roberto
roberto

what the fuck are you talking about asswipe. Bobby your a fucken disgrace to the world As a Mexican American all i can say is Fuck you, fuck your family and fuck anybody invovlved in your pathetic life doucghbag. piece of shit like you hides behind a comuter. lucky for you loser, otherwise id knock the fuck out of you.

Jason
Jason

Jan Brewer is a clueless ditz even without endorsing Neely. That's why she has a GED and has run the state into financial ruin.

Stanton seems to be the best candidate for Phoenix mayor. What the city needs is a mayor who can stand up to the Flaccid Fool of MCSO and bring jobs to the city. Something started by current Mayor Phil Gordon.

I'd put my vote on Stanton if I was voting for Phoenix mayor. But, since I live in Mesa, home of now-recalled Senator Pearce, I think I will support our current mayor.

Anon
Anon

While the people are distracted this group of profiteers is making Arizona an official "prison state".

taffichound
taffichound

John, thanks for the link.. just listened it to it.  Another amazing testament to Neely's criminal behavior. What a barracuda. Our fair city needs some serious housecleaning.

FormerRepublican
FormerRepublican

Keep posting this John.  Neely should purusue loftier dreams....like a makeover perhaps.

Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer
Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer

NO to Wes Gullet, also. We do not need more prison jobs or those related to the growing mass incarceration of Arizona's people and visitors. Build schools, infrastructure, repair old and falling apart structures and rebuild the community structures in other areas than the wealthy towns in the valley.

Reggie Wayne
Reggie Wayne

Arizona is run by puppets of ALEC.  Doris Goodale, you used to be normal, now you are a puppet of right wing extremist groups.

Jason
Jason

Just like The MCSO shurf.

"What she really meant to say is she's moving on to the next victims, the City of Phoenix, the Maricopa County taxpayers and the state of Arizona."

Mustang
Mustang

...because she dud nothing illegal.

John Magen
John Magen

Mustang, this was not an opinion piece.  These are the facts.  You must be in denial.  Or you must be Brian Neely. Or both!

taffichound
taffichound

@CC/T, I frankly do not see any other reasonable alternative candidate.  Wes Gullet stands out head and shoulders above the other candidates.  I read his website and it rings true to me.

Coz
Coz

You were right the first time, she's a dud.

Mustang
Mustang

You're a shitty detective, John. This article did not include all of the facts nor did it present them in a fair light. Brian has better things to do than try and educate you people.

Anon
Anon

Stanton is the choice. Phoenix needs a Democrat, not a Republican, whose party is racist and filled with hate and destruction.

John Magen
John Magen

Hi Ted....you live in Tucson.  Keep your dog sh....... out of Phoenix.  You have problems of your own down there.

Ted
Ted

You demonstrate your stupidity when you say such ridiculous nonsense trafficdoggie!

Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer
Concerned Citizen/Taxpayer

Phoenix needs a Democrat for Mayor. So Stanton is the best of the group. Those who support the racism and bigotry/SB1070/ALEC should not be elected for anything much less a major American city.

Walter Concrete
Walter Concrete

Duh!  Insightful moronic loser of your 3rd grade spelling bee, I see.  Don't feel too bad, you always have next year to look forward to...4th grade.  Sometimes we just like to have a little uninsightful fun, dork wad.     What else is politics for except sheeple like you Pony boy.

Tommy Collins
Tommy Collins

In that case, Jason, I will NOT vote for Neely. We will call it a proxy NO vote..

Jason
Jason

I live in Mesa and hate Neely. I wouldn't even vote Neely in the office of dog catcher

Coz
Coz

Not really, Arizona loves it's corrupt politicians.

Mustang
Mustang

Sadly, you underestimte the number of Neely supporters.

John Magen
John Magen

Mustang, are you kidding?  Did you read the article?  Not only did she violate the law but she got away with it because no one knew this stuff before.  Now the city attorney needs to take a hard deep look at Neely and bring her up on charges of public corruption.  For anyone to support Neely after reading this article, you must be either her husband or one of her daughters.  No one else could support Neely at this point.

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