Bill Montgomery Looks the Other Way at 1,761 Possible Felony Crimes

DPSnAZ

Take Paragraph 163 of the German Penal Procedure Code and make it the very core of a new, Federal Penal Procedure Code her in the US. That would catch the attention of those too lazy or too crooked to enforce the LAW !

dennis20 topcommenter

4 Like

How many times have we heard Arpaiop state "I enforce ALL the laws." uh no you don't Joe.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@dennis20 You are absolutely right. The Employer Sanctions Law comes to mind immediately. Only 2 sanctioned since 2008. I fully support the recall and intend to carry a petition as an unpaid volunteer. But Dennis, you need to control yourself. Ripping that sign out of that old man's hand makes you look like the aggressor. Why didn't you do that at the gun rally? Could it be true that an armed society is a polite society?

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@jonnyquest Or could it be that you don't know which armed individual is the mentally unstable one so you have to treat them all as if they are mentally unstable? Just another theory there for you johny.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @jonnyquest Ignorant ass Arpaio supporters deserve to be slapped around. BUT DOING SO DIPS THE CAUSE IN SHIT!!! My secondary point is that when you're old, physically weak, and unarmed even pacifist liberals push you around.

alwesley

3 Like

Arizona will pay the price for their blatant racism just like Mississippi and Alabama did and still do. Embarrassing. The incredible thing is people still try to justify this kind of blatant unfairness. The easiest person to deceive is yourself.

dennis20 topcommenter

1 Like

Given this information, it would certainly not be liable to call Bill Montgomery a racist. That half million dollars Arpaio spent to get him elected sure went along way.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

Per the Channel 12 report, 1500 of the IDs were not forged IDs, but legit IDs that did not belong to the person presenting it. The information on those 1500 IDs is accurate information in that the information is accurate about an individual, just not about the individual presenting. Therefore, these IDs would likely not violate ARS 13-2002 because the presenter did not (1) make, complete or alter a false written instrument (the instrument was created by the state and contains accurate information); (2) knowingly posses a false instrument (the information on the instrument is accurate); or (3) offer or present a forged instrument (the information is not forged); or (4) offer or present an instrument that contains false information (the information on the instrument is not false).

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

You could potentially charge these individuals under ARS 13-2006, which states "A person commits criminal impersonation by: 1. Assuming a false identity with the intent to defraud another." But I don't know that trying to get into a bar with a fake ID constitutes defrauding someone because it does not constitute stealing something of value from the individual or bar. You could potenttially charge under ARS 13-2008, which states "A person commits taking the identity of another person or entity if the person knowingly takes, purchases, manufactures, records, possesses or uses any personal identifying information or entity identifying information of another person or entity, including a real or fictitious person or entity, without the consent of that other person or entity, with the intent to obtain or use the other person's or entity's identity for any unlawful purpose or to cause loss to a person or entity whether or not the person or entity actually suffers any economic loss as a result of the offense, or with the intent to obtain or continue employment." But I suspect that most of these 1500 had the consent of the person whose ID they are using. My pont is that while I recognize the disparate way that college kids and undocumented aliens may be treated, felony charging may not be as easy as Mr. Lemons suggests.

truthseekeraz topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public Felony charging may not be easy? How about the over 200,000 felony CASES under disgraced, disbarred ex-MCAO Andrew Thomas and his disbarred chief "charing" prosecutor ex-DCA Lisa Aubuchon and the blogging witch-hunts by sanctioned ex-DCA Rachel Alexander -- her work, like porn -- is all over the internet, for all posterity. The "troika" took great pride in using "internet" for "easy" convictions.

It's time to end absolute immunity for prosecutors, hold them accountable and get "checks and balances" in the justice system they have ignored for years. Montgomery has swept this cases, and thousands of lives under the rug, while he moves on and up. Only bullys and cowards go after "easy" pickings -- those who are vulnerable and have no voice.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@truthseekeraz My pont exactly. Bad prosecutors will work to make the statutes and facts fit their preconceived political beliefs regardless of what the facts actually are but good prosecutors will leave their political beliefs at the office door, fully examine the facts and charge based on a reasonable reading of the statute.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public I knew you were a lawyer.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @jonnyquest Well, you do know your shit.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@jonnyquest Great comeback. Way to cut me to the core there johny.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @jonnyquest Clearly, an expert opinion.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @jonnyquest An expert opinion.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@jonnyquest Never took it as one. Apparently you think that you are the only one who can engage in subtle satire. Can't believe you're still here - isn't Alex Jones calling for you...I think he needs more of your money to fight the tri-lateral commission and the U.N. Black Helicopters who are coming to take your precious guns.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@jonnyquest Don't scrimp on the laxatives because clearly you are full of shit.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @jonnyquest It wasn't a complement.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@MotherJones @jonnyquest So much for subtle satire. I hate lawyers. They are bottom feeders. The biggest sludge suckers of them become politicians. Lying bastards who tell you what you want to hear. Wow, I feel so much better. And I didn't even need a laxative.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@MotherJones The irony is that I'm on your side politically the vast majority of the time but unlike Andrew Thomas, Arpaio or Montgomery I'm straight up in my statutory analysis and not willing to bend my analysis to fit my political world view. Sorry if that doesn't work for you.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@jonnyquest I appreciate the compliment, but I hope not - then I'd have people like me really, really made at me for the crappy job me and my colleagues have done for the past 20 years.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@MotherJones @jonnyquest I am an attorney and a really good one. I'd love to spend my day doing statutory analysis for the good folks on this board but, alas, I only have time to do a cursory review because of other pressing issues. Notice that I was very specific in my language above and used words like "potentially" and "likely" because I did not do a full or complete statutory analysis that I'd be willing to rely on in legal proceedings. Further, its hard to truly apply the statute to the situation without more and more specific facts than contained in a news report. My comments above were only my initial impressions as should have been clear from my language.

MotherJones topcommenter

@jonnyquest Sorry, I decline to join your fan club of one. Hes already made assumptions that are not true. If you want to hire him as your counsel, go right ahead.

jonnyquest topcommenter

@MotherJones @jonnyquest Are you kidding me? Good lawyers will convince you that day is night. The best lawyers get elected to public office. JQP is going to run for the US Senate.

MotherJones topcommenter

@jonnyquest If so, not a very good one.

MotherJones topcommenter

1 Like

@JohnQ.Public What about the 224 who got cited? That's at least 224 possible felonies.

Slowriter59

@MotherJones @JohnQ.Public Right, misrepresentation used to effect the commission of a crime, purchase of alcohol by an underage person.

MotherJones topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @MotherJones Defraud is "trickery." You are tricking someone into letting you into their establishment. and you are assuming the identity of another. It's possible to charge under this. They hit some undocumented with this, and if "defraud" fits there, it can fit with the college kid.

MotherJones topcommenter

@JohnQ.Public @MotherJones Lemons didn't mention 13-2008. He's aware of the exception. Has written about it previously, I believe.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

And there may be alcohol control laws that are felonies that these individuals can be charged with as well, I did not look at that part of the code.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@MotherJones I think it was me who mentioned ARS 13-2008, not Lemons. Lemons only mentioned ARS 13-2002.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@MotherJones Absolutely - the 225 that used forged IDs purchased from China or made at home can absolutely be charged under 13-2002.

JohnQ.Public topcommenter

@MotherJones No, I mentioned ARS 13-2006. I don't know that it applies under (A)(1) because I don't know that trying to get into a bar is an attempt to "defraud another" and I don't know if it falls under (A)(3) because it probably isn't pretending to be an employee or rep of a person or org. Quite frankly I didn't have a chance to do a full review and analysis of the statute or the case law (if any), I just gave it a cursory look-over. While I agree the there is disparate treatment, my only point was that charging decisions are not necessarily as easy as Lemons makes them out to be because of the very literal approach to statutory interpretation that a good deputy county attorney in the charging bureau should take.

MotherJones topcommenter

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@JohnQ.Public Also the 13-2008 doesn't apply because there's an exception in that law, as Lemons states.

MotherJones topcommenter

1 Like

@JohnQ.Public You also missed 13-2006. Permission or not it's a felony.

13-2006. Criminal impersonation; classification

A. A person commits criminal impersonation by:

1. Assuming a false identity with the intent to defraud another; or

2. Pretending to be a representative of some person or organization with the intent to defraud; or

3. Pretending to be, or assuming a false identity of, an employee or a representative of some person or organization with the intent to induce another person to provide or allow access to property. This paragraph does not apply to peace officers in the performance of their duties.

B. Criminal impersonation is a class 6 felony.

zhenry9

Do you really want to charge 18 year olds with fake IDs as felons? Why? Seems silly to me. Gotta agree with Montgomery on this one.

danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@zhenry9 they are still breaking the law. it doesnt matter why or what they are doing it for. if no one cares that the immigrants are trying to get a better life, why should they go lenient on the kids who have a better life and want to go out and get drunk and possibly ruin their lives? neither one is a victimless crime so both should be treated as criminals. the students are assuming a false identity to gain something just like the illegals are. the only difference is that the illegals arent putting other people at risk by working, the kids are driving home from the bars and risking others. the law is supposed to be there to protect us from having our lives affected by their illegal actions. laws are put into effect for everyone, not just certain people. all kinds of people keep yelling ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS ILLEGAL. well so is underage drinking, so is using a fake ID

dennis20 topcommenter

1 Like

@zhenry9 This isn't about charging college kids with felonies and ruining their lives. It's about fairness. Stop arresting workers. By charging an undocumented immigrant with a felony for working ruins his/her chances of ever becoming a legal resident or citizen. The vast majority of those charged in Arpaio's work raids are parents without criminal records and have worked there long before e-verify was even around.

MaskedMagician1967 topcommenter

1 Like

@dennis20

Which may make them citizens. IRCA was signed by Reagan in 1986 and granted citizenship to some 3 million illegals who were here prior to 1/1/1982

MotherJones topcommenter

1 Like

@dennis20 Dennis gets it. No one wants to charge college kids with felonies. But the law must be fairly applied. Leave the workers alone. Treat them as you do the college kids.

danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@MotherJones that or treat the college kids the same as the workers. if they are going to scream about the workers breaking the law, they should be screaming about the college kids breaking the law too. the law is supposed to be fair and just, not biased or preferential

MotherJones topcommenter

3 Like

@zhenry9 What about the 18 year olds working illegally who would benefit from Obama's deferred action program? What's the difference? Oh, the college 18 year olds are white kids sitting on their asses and getting wasted while the one's working are brown. Maybe in the same bars as barbacks.

Charge them the same or not at all.

danzigsdaddy topcommenter

@MotherJones we also have no idea if the fake ID's were only used to buy alcohol. they could just as easily been using those ID's to pull fraudulent schemes. it is the same crime as using that ID to get a job. all we have is their word for it that it was a one time deal to go get drunk. and if the person who's ID it was knew about it, thats yet another charge.

MaskedMagician1967 topcommenter

2 Like

As I said before, I give Monty credit for his service in the Gulf War.

Now MontyPug is following in twice-disgraced, corrupt, narcissistic and mentally sick Pearce's footsteps and is becoming a racist and a hater. Just like his good buddy the MCSO shurf.

truthseekeraz topcommenter

@MaskedMagician1967 You failed to mention, he replaced disgraced and disbarred ex-MCAO Andrew Thomas and is carrying his agenda. Mark Faull worked for Andrew Thomas and now he works directly for Montgomery. Nothing has changed. Lives continue to be destroyed daily in Maricopa County.