Russell Pearce, Enemy of the U.S. Constitution

Pearce regurgitates a nativist whopper on the "original intent" of the 14th Amendment during an October presser

Of all the grotesque lies spewed by the nativist right in its effort to undo birthright citizenship as guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the most odious is the canard that the "original intent" of the amendment's authors was not to grant citizenship to children born on U.S. soil to alien parents.

The language at issue, is the amendment's citizenship clause, which reads,

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The plain wording of that text, the Congressional debate that took place over it in 1866, and U.S. Supreme Court precedent since the amendment was ratified, make clear that all children born on U.S. soil to alien parents are U.S. citizens. The only exceptions: the offspring of enemy combatants, foreign diplomats, and, at the time, "Indians not taxed"; i.e., Native Americans on tribal lands.

To bolster the false claim that U.S.-born children of aliens are not citizens, nativists argue that the authors of the 14th Amendment, such as Senator Jacob Howard of Michigan, did not intend for the children of aliens to benefit from a grant of birthright citizenship.

As state Senate President-elect Russell Pearce does in the above video clip from an October news conference, nativists cite a passage from Howard's remarks in the U.S. Senate on May 30, 1866, reading it in such a way that it seems to support their sinister aim.

"This amendment," stated Howard of the citizenship clause, "which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States.

"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons."

Howard is clearly stating that foreigners and aliens, "who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers," are not covered by the 14th Amendment's citizenship clause. But practically everyone else is.

In an essay for an Immigration Policy Center report on birthright citizenship, constitutional scholar James Ho observes that nativists are attempting to rewrite history with a misreading of Howard's statement.

Ho points out that in the debate over Howard's proposed language, both sides agreed that the result of the new language would be to make the children of aliens U.S. citizens.

"First," writes Ho, "they quote Howard's introductory remarks to state that birthright citizenship `will not, of course, include ... foreigners.' But that reads Howard's reference to `aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers' out of the sentence. It also renders completely meaningless the subsequent dialogue between Senators [Edgar] Cowan and [John] Conness over the wisdom of extending birthright citizenship to the children of Chinese immigrants and Gypsies."

Hell, don't take Ho's word for it. Do something that Pearce himself evidently hasn't done (or won't admit to), read the record of the debate from The Congressional Globe, here.

Cowan, a Senator from Pennsylvania, objected to the fact that the progeny of Gypsies and Chinese laborers would be U.S.citizens under Howard's 14th Amendment language.

Conness, a California Senator, had absolutely no problem with it:

"The proposition before us, I will say, Mr. President, relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. We have declared that by law; now it is proposed to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of the nation. I am in favor of doing so. I voted for the proposition to declare that the children of all parentage whatever, born in California, should be regarded and treated as citizens of the United States, entitled to equal civil rights with other citizens of the United States."

Pearce is dead wrong when he posits that the 14th Amendment has been hijacked by the judiciary to mean something other than intended. Quite the contrary. Pearce is doing the hijacking, attempting to deprive U.S. citizens of their birthright under the Constitution, the supreme law of the land.

In fact, what Pearce wants to do -- snatch birth certificates from the infant hands of citizen tots -- is in direct violation of the Constitution, which, in the 14th Amendment, declares that,

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This makes Pearce an enemy of the Constitution, and a traitor to the very ideals that make the United States, in the words of Lincoln, "the last, best hope of Earth." And Pearce calls the undocumented "illegals"? What utter gall.


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149 comments
manny
manny

Russell Pearce is an angry white man ( REPUBLICAN ) ,he don't like minority gropus ,REAL KKK

XSoldier
XSoldier

Tommy, sounds to me like Pearce is just like his buddy the Flaccid Fool of MCSO, who is a mentally ill old man, just like Pearce himself.

Good luck Russell. What a waste of taxpayer time and money this fat fool is.

Hock
Hock

Each generation has their ethnic group to fear. My mother's family immigrated from Ireland in the 30's. Her older brother, my Uncle, was so angry at the bigotry against him as an immigrant, being accused of stealing American jobs, lowering wages etc., that he joined the merchant marines. He loved America, but hated bigots.

I should mention, that my grandfather was an illegal alien from Ireland...joined the Army in WWI, and when he was discharged after the war was deported to Ireland...he then immigrated back to the U.S. with his family in the 30s...and received full V.A. benefits for his service. He and many other Irish immigrants mistakenly thought if they joined the military they would be granted citizenship...recruiters lied even during World War I.

Anon
Anon

http://Moreyunit.com/

Private Prison Economic Help Drive - SB1070

Click Here To LISTEN TO THE STORY Read More18 days ago by Morey ControlBe the first to Comment!Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

Laura Sullivan/NPR Glenn Nichols, city manager of Benson, Ariz., says two men came to the city last year "talking about building a facility to hold women and children that were illegals." text size A A A October 28, 2010 Last year, two men showed up in Benson, Ariz., a small deser... Read More18 days ago by Morey Control

Anon
Anon

Who monitors the monitors? Furthermore, when people like Arpaio are not held accountable, not only will they run amok, but they will hire deputies who also have an expanded view of their own power.

I know the Nazi analogy is overblown, but the real damage in that regime was done on the streets by the uniformed (read that, "costumed") bullies who knew they could slap around anyone they wanted and never have to face a minute's resistance. And if they were resisted, then the person who resisted was finished off by the "system."

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linaimai

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Coz
Coz

Russel Pearce is the biggest bag of shit there ever was.

Kevin_4949
Kevin_4949

Hey Guys Ladies and gentelmen we should look into this BILDERBEG AGENDA (GOOGLE IT) it will suprise you. That mother fucker Pearce, Jan Brewer, and Joe Arpiayo, and amoung others are clicks involved... If you need more Information go to Moreyunit.com on how currupt and Racist that mother fucker is. I appoligize for being belligerent but it makes me so MAD that those Idiots are giving ARIZONA and the Citizens a Bad reputation Please look in to it, Remember Moreyuint.com under Prison economics help drive Arizona Immigration Law......... and another is Bilderberg Agenda...... Thanks and God Bless....

Johnfalky
Johnfalky

Does anybody out there notice his obsession with going after people who can't defend themselves? Children are easy targets for a high school bully that resides within the lard-laced body of an aging adult.

linaimai
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The Lou Show
The Lou Show

Watch out for this "Mark" guy as you read this thread. He's a troll from F.A.I.R. who is trying to take the high road towards "open dialog". But as you read the exchanges, you'll notice that his definition of open dialog is to repeat the same thing, over and over, as long . . . . as the dialog remains "open". "Mark" is very selective as to what he uses, entirely disregarding counter-arguments.

"Mark" is employing an old Nazi trick by repeating his mantra, over and over again, all this the hope that his point of view will make start to make sense in the mind of you, Dear Reader.

And every time anyone responds to him, "Mark" just continues to post the same drivel, in order to also be the first post anyone reads. Go ahead . . . read through this thread and you will discover my claims are true. "Mark" (AKA F.A.I.R. Troll) ignores the content of responses, but keeps trying to stay "on top" Also, notice how many times he posts, repeatedly.

Go away, F.A.I.R. Troll "Mark".

Joeweb
Joeweb

Look @ Russell Pearce face close - he is an OLD, BITTER MAN. And I bet he has to take high blood pressure meds.

Mark
Mark

"Finally, if you really wanted to solve the problem, which I don't believe for a second you do, you'd want to bring these people into the system so they pay the taxes in the open you don't think they don't pay. But you don't. All you whine about is fact statistics and fake arguments and false options that drag this out for year after year after year after year."

Believe what you want. I want the solution to the problem to be in the best interests of Americans not illegal invaders. Again, I never said they don't pay any taxes. They just don't pay enough to cover their social costs. If allowed to remain here and pay additional taxes they are at the poverty level with many dependaents so therefore they would pay literally no income taxes. Americans need those jobs at a fair wage and their tax contributions would be much higher. I haven't used any fake arguments at all. I have repeated over and over that my main objection is to rewarding illegal aliens with allowing them to remain here and what this does to our population growth and the added demands to our resources. We already take in 1.5 milliion legal immigrants a year. We just don't have the jobs and resources anymore. The last amnesty only encouraged 4 times the number of illegal aliens to jump our borders after that. When is enough, enough?

"You, sir, are the problem. You and people who think like you are the reason we can't get to a solution to the problem."

No, sir it is you and your ilk that are the problem. You put illlegal foreigners above the well beiing of your own country and its citizens.

Mark
Mark

"Yuma is the lettuce capital of the country in the Winter and they can't "Americans" who want to do the work. One farmer said he needs 30,000 workers to bring all of his crop in one Winter season and he can't find the workers."

It is true that most Americans won't pick crops for a living. Most Americans are educated and can't afford to feed a family on crop picking and it isn't something you can make a career out of anyway since the body gives out in a short time. But crop pickers only make up 2% of our entire workforce. Most illegals aren't picking crops. They are taking construction jobs and other blue collar jobs that Americans have always done for a fair wage until the cheap, illegal labor came along.

For these crop picking jobs where farmers can't find American workers there are unlimited H-2A visas but the farmers have to pay them more and meet more than slave labor standards for these legal immigrant crop pickers. So these farmers have no excuse but greed and they do not pass any savings on to us in the grocery store.

And I am the one "full of shit"? Educate yourself.

Mark
Mark

"You're a worthless troll"

I have been very civil in here. You cannot refute my arguments so typical of you lefties and ethnocentric to resort to insults and the race card also. Now who is the real troll?

Mark
Mark

"And this is usually what happens when the government deports the parents and the child is still a minor with no relatives to stay with in the U.S.

So What?

The child is still a U.S. Citizen."

The deported parents can take their minor U.S. children with them. Too bad so many don't have all those family values that they claim to have and leave them here to fend for themselves instead.

So what that they are citizens? They can return to this country when they are no longer minors. No one will stop them. In the meantime minors belong with their parents.

Marklindley37
Marklindley37

"Why indeed. An adult, who is an American born children of illegal aliens is an American citizen. They should not have to move to Mexico, like you have proposed."

Mexico offers dual citizenship so they are also Mexican nationals. The whole family can leave including their illegal parents back to Mexico where they all hold citizenship. Wouldn't want that separation of families thingy to happen, now would we?

chicagonut
chicagonut

"There is no incentive to them doing so. Every reason you've stated is either a lie or not fact. You've failed to supply proof of your claims. You conveniently left this off the quote. Nor am I in any sort of denial, rather it is reality and facts."

No sense in arguing with you on this since you refuse to accept the fact that illegals come here for all the incentives, jobs, benefits, birthright citizenship. Continue to stay in denial and stick your head in the sand then.

"Let's give logic one more try....Since you focus on Mexicans...How do they get here (and let's work with pregnant ones, right, they are coming here to give birth, or..are they so devious that it's all planned, they come here THEN get pregnant?)...So, let's get back to them getting here. Pregnant Mexican woman just walks across the border? Too simple. Ah, they walk several dozen miles...in the desert. YES, this seems like something any pregnant woman could do! Or, crammed in a vehicle with several others for hours on end? Absolutely!"

Some Mexican woman come here pregnant and some get pregnant after getting here so what is your point? The Border Patrol has seen the pregnant ones themselves and trucks and vans have been stopped by law enforcement with pregnant illegals in them. There have been many stories reported on the news of pregnant illegals being caught at the border. Where have you been living, in a cave? I suggest you watch some news stories on tv and read a newspaper once in awhile.

"Do illegals that are here end up getting pregnant when they are here? Absolutely. Is it some sort of devious plot (and you keep referring to reconquista theories)? No. Oh, wait...their offspring will give them a path to citizenship...Sure, in a perfect world and current wait times...figure when the kid turns 18 he can apply...so about 25 years to go that route? But then there's the tricky part of how he was born here to parents who were undocumented...Or is it in hopes of Amnesty, as you like to allude? No sane Mexican is deluded enough to think the US is going to do this"

They are that deluded because Obama and past administrations have been promising amnesty to them and with a U.S. born anchor they would be the first to be considered.

"Finally, I'm working some of your logic. You've said several times that "all/most Native Americans oppose illegal immigration. You've cited as your sole source your wife, whom you claim is Navajo. So your wife speaks for every Native American, correct? Well, I'm of Mexican descent and my wife's Mexican, now a naturalized US citizen. I asked her over dinner how many Mexican women come here to have babies so they can soak the system and become a system. She said none."

Show some proof that many or even many descendants of the tribes of those indigenous to our country are thrilled about this illegal invasion from Mexico. I see, so since your wife is Mexican she knows exactly what all Mexican illegal woman are thinking? You say my wife shouldn't speak for all Native Americans but then you say your wife can speak for all Mexican women? LOL!

chicagonut
chicagonut

"Few of these jobs have been open solely for undocumented workers; they were and are available for Americans. Why haven't Americans taken those jobs?"

Americans can't get hired for them at a fair wage, that's why The illegal takes the cheap wage and the employers will hire them instead. Good, Lord this isn't rocket science, you know. No American should have to compete with an illegal for slave wages to work in their own damned country. Many of these jobs since they hire mostly Spanish speaking illegals won't hire a mono-English speaking American because they wouldn't be able to communicate with these illegals on the job.

"Oh, wait...do you realize that you just recognized that undocumented workers DO pay taxes? That's not what you said before?"

I never said that no illegals pay any taxes. What are you smoking? They just don't pay enough to cover their social costs.

chicagonut
chicagonut

'Then why don't you move there?

Surely someone with your background, you would be able to make lots of money.

Why would you force someone else who has spent their entire life in America to do the job for you?"

I am retired for one thing. Why should an American move to Mexico because Mexican citizens have taken American jobs in the U.S. KInd of doing things in reverse, aren't you?

Chilidawg
Chilidawg

Mark wrote: "Mexico in particular needs educated adults. "==============================

Then why don't you move there?

Surely someone with your background, you would be able to make lots of money.

Why would you force someone else who has spent their entire life in America to do the job for you?

Chilidawg
Chilidawg

Mark Wrote: "Courts make wrong decisions all the time and it is PC that has ruined this country for some time now."==============================

These decisions date back to the 19th century, are you saying that they were PC back then?

The Lou Show
The Lou Show

Watch out for this "Mark" guy as you read this thread. He's a troll from F.A.I.R. who is trying to take the high road towards "open dialog". But as you read the exchanges, you'll notice that his definition of open dialog is to repeat the same thing, over and over, as long . . . . as the dialog remains "open". "Mark" is very selective as to what he uses, entirely disregarding counter-arguments.

"Mark" is employing an old Nazi trick by repeating his mantra, over and over again, all this the hope that his point of view will make start to make sense in the mind of you, Dear Reader.

And every time anyone responds to him, "Mark" just continues to post the same drivel, in order to also be the first post anyone reads. Go ahead . . . read through this thread and you will discover my claims are true. "Mark" (AKA F.A.I.R. Troll) ignores the content of responses, but keeps trying to stay "on top" Also, notice how many times he posts, repeatedly.

Go away, F.A.I.R. Troll "Mark".

chicagonut
chicagonut

"So your wife is the offspring of a captured concubine and a European invader.So her thinking has been destroyed by the European contamination that is so obviously evident in your posts.It is no wonder that she thinks like the milky white invader she beds, feh!" No, my wife doesn't live in the past and she knows that Americans alive today are not responsible for the past. She accepts the fact that not only did white people migrate here but so did Asians, Blacks, etc. at a later date and they came under U.S. immigration law. She isn't concerned about any conflicts that occured between her ancestoral tribes and the Europeans. This is 2010 now, not hundreds of years ago and all those people are dead now and every modern day country has immigration laws. Those coming here illegally mostly from Mexico have no claims on U.S. territory because their ancestoral tribes were not indigenous to the U.S. and Mexico was paid millions for some southwest territories long ago. I am not a milky white invader. I was born here and my ancestors came here under U.S. immigration law and nowhere in my family tree did any of my ancestors come duriing the early settler years and subsequent conflicts with the natives. Or am I guilty just because I have white skin?

"Immigration and assimilation, no matter how you try to spin it, are the cornerstones that made this country what it is today.And this is why there are still places called Little Italy, Little Germany, Little fill in the blank in every city in the US?"

There is a difference between small pockets of ethnic business neighborhoods and an entire group of people throughout our nation refusing to assimilate to our language and culture out in public. I don't care what language or culture one chooses to practice at home.

"No, it is 2010, and racists have finally learned that MOST Americans are not tolerant of others wearing sheets and hoods and spouting racist crap so now the couch their words in what ever the FEAR DU JUR is and right now that fear is economic trouble"

So how many Americans are wearing sheets and hoods and spouting racist crap? What does that have to do with our right to have and to enforce our immigration laws? Those who desire that (and they are the majority of Americans regardless of race) are racists for that? Millions of Americans are out of work. Why shouldn't they fear not being able to take care of their own families due to cheap, illegal labor?

"The writer's of that amendment were clear that children of illegal aliens regardless of their skin color or race were not to be granted our precious citizenship"Please site EXACTLY in the 14th does it say EXACTLY that.YOU CAN"T BECASUE IT DOES NOT EXIST."

So your wife is the offspring of a captured concubine and a European invader.So her thinking has been destroyed by the European contamination that is so obviously evident in your posts.It is no wonder that she thinks like the milky white invader she beds, feh!

"Immigration and assimilation, no matter how you try to spin it, are the cornerstones that made this country what it is today." And this is why there are still places called Little Italy, Little Germany, Little fill in the blank in every city in the US?

"That was in the past. This is 2010 now where racism is unacceptable and most Americans are not racist just because they want our immigration laws enforced"No, it is 2010, and racists have finally learned that MOST Americans are not tolerant of others wearing sheets and hoods and spouting racist crap so now the couch their words in what ever the FEAR DU JUR is and right now that fear is economic trouble/

"The writer's of that amendment were clear that children of illegal aliens regardless of their skin color or race were not to be granted our precious citizenship"Please site EXACTLY in the 14th does it say EXACTLY that.YOU CAN"T BECASUE IT DOES NOT EXIST. So your wife is the offspring of a captured concubine and a European invader.So her thinking has been destroyed by the European contamination that is so obviously evident in your posts.It is no wonder that she thinks like the milky white invader she beds, feh!

"Immigration and assimilation, no matter how you try to spin it, are the cornerstones that made this country what it is today." And this is why there are still places called Little Italy, Little Germany, Little fill in the blank in every city in the US?

"That was in the past. This is 2010 now where racism is unacceptable and most Americans are not racist just because they want our immigration laws enforced"No, it is 2010, and racists have finally learned that MOST Americans are not tolerant of others wearing sheets and hoods and spouting racist crap so now the couch their words in what ever the FEAR DU JUR is and right now that fear is economic trouble/

"The writer's of that amendment were clear that children of illegal aliens regardless of their skin color or race were not to be granted our precious citizenship"Please site EXACTLY in the 14th does it say EXACTLY that.YOU CAN"T BECASUE IT DOES NOT EXIST."

http://www.14thamendment.us/ar...

http://www.14thamendment.us/ar...

chicagonut
chicagonut

"You have asked for a open dialog, I am offering you a chance to start a dialog but with your own thoughts an reasons and not someone elses."

My thoughts are my own based on common sense and logic. Common sense says that children of illegal aliens born on our soil should not and never were intended to be instant citizens and this:

You have asked for a open dialog, I am offering you a chance to start a dialog but with your own thoughts an reasons and not someone elses.

You have asked for a open dialog, I am offering you a chance to start a dialog but with your own thoughts an reasons and not someone elses.

http://www.14thamendment.us/ar...

The Lou Show
The Lou Show

MARK is a troll for F.A.I.R. His intention is to wear anybody down who responds to him . . . by repeating the same thing, over and over again. So it's no wonder this thread has been reduced to name-calling, because how many times can you use reasoning and logic with someone who refuses to see it . . . until frustration sets in? I have no patience for these trolls.

chicagonut
chicagonut

"Over 100 years of court decisions have intepreted the clause the same way. What makes you smarter than all those Supreme Court Justices?"

Courts make wrong decisions all the time and it is PC that has ruined this country for some time now. If you are so sure you are right then why not let the SC revisit this amendment and delve into the true meaning that the writers intended it to mean? What you afraid of? You think our immigration laws should be changed and not enforced. Why the double standard for yourself as far as opinions go?

chicagonut
chicagonut

"Do you teach your kids that if they steal from a store that it OK to do that or do you make them return the stolen item because that is the RIGHT thing to do?If you do, then what is the difference in what you proposed above and give back the land that was stolen?"

It isn't the descendants of the tribes indigenous to THIS country that are complaining. It is the Mestizo Mexicans who are also part Spaniard that are complaining about stolen land (which Mexico was paid 15 million dollars for). What are these illegal Mexicans doing all over the U.S.? Their native tribes were from south of our border and Mexico only occupied a small part of the southwest for a short time.

We have treaties with those descendants of the tribes indigenous to THIS country. Why is it Mexicans complaining about the past and not them? As I said, if you have any beefs then take it up with our government and stop demonizing white Americans today for a past they played no role in. I notice that you aren't complaining about the Asians, Blacks and other races who came here later and not uninvited by the native indians. Whether they had any conflicts with the natives is irrelevant isn't it if they never got an invitation from the native indians? You apparently are racist against white Americans over a past they played no role in. Get over yourself or complain to our government, not us.

chicagonut
chicagonut

"Well that is what you are doing now, you are living in a country that you have no rights to be living in now."

This from a strong advocate of birthright citizenship? You do know what hypocricy means, don't you? According to U.S. law as it stands now, everyone born on our soil is a citizen and belongs here. Why the double standard for your anchors but Americans who have been here for generations and were all born here, don't belong here? FYI, that wouldn't only be whites you know. It would mean every person regardlesss of what continent their ancestors were from or what race or ethnicity they are, wouldn't belong here even though they were born here. Good God, get a grip and take it up with our government and stop beating up on U.S. citizens. Are you a full blooded descendant of a tribe indigenous to THIS country? If not, then you don't have even the weakest case to make. Mestizo Mexicans aren't indigenous to this country. They have that white European, Spanish blood coursing through their veins. When are they packing up for Spain?

chicagonut
chicagonut

I have already posted examples of how the Germans were part of the settling of Native American lands that was not theirs to begin with and how they killed those same native Americans to keep what was stolen.

ALL European countries sent settlers to the NEW world so all are guilty of genocide.As for the polish, one name for ya bucko - Count Casmir Polaski - How many of the Legion that he asked Washington to grant him were Fellow Pollocks? Close to 45%.

Since the Iroquois League split, with 2 nations assisting the rebels and 4 assisting the British , Polaski and his troops killed a large number of Native Americans - MY DIRECT ancestors.

""Well then Mark, your families are one of those Subsequent settlers then, and you have benefited from the crimes of your parents and their parents."

No, my family was not. They were the Germans and the Poles who didn't come here till well after the conflicts between the settlers and the native indians"

"Do you NOT understand what the phrase Subsequent settlers means?and again Germans and poles were too part of the Eurpoean immigrant wave to flood the lands of the peoples who were native to the Americas BEFORE the Europeans decided to STEAL by force and biological attacks what they wanted but it belonged to someone else."

My ancestors were not settlers, they were legal immigrants. I am not related to every German person of the past. I am only related to my own family tree. None of this happened in my family tree. Do you always blame others for the sins of unrelated people out of the past?

chicagonut
chicagonut

"You continually cite people coming to the US solely to give birth to children in order for them to be citizens. You continually cite the cost to US taxpayers"

I never said that they all come here for that purpose but it is a huge incentive. Many learn after getting here that producing even one anchor entitles them to all kinds of freebies. They also believe that if an amnesty is ever given again they will be first in line for it because of their citizen children. Remain in denial all you like. It doesn't change the facts.

chicagonut
chicagonut

"As I pointed out earlier, those children grow up to be productive members of society, paying taxes and returning the investment back ten fold. Your solution would destroy that return on the investment."

They can be productive members of their society in their homelands. Mexico in particular needs educated adults. The jobs they would take if allowed to remain here would be taken by Americans and they in turn would pay in the same taxes. Cut our losses now.

Mark
Mark

No. YOU think that the parents think that. In reality, you have no idea what they think.

"The reality is that this is not true. Citizen children do not "Anchor" the parents here. you know this and it is rather dismissive, ignorant, and biased of you to assume that the parents don't know this as well."

It is ignorant of you to deny the truth. Many of these parents think that with citizenship children they will be granted amnesty someday. These are people who are very undeducated for the most part. Same thing with the Dreamies. They think because they attended our schools and their family is established on our soil that will give them a foot in the door to legalization. Don't play dumb here.

Mark
Mark

"MARK is a troll for F.A.I.R. His intention is to wear anybody down who responds to him . . . by repeating the same thing, over and over again. So it's no wonder this thread has been reduced to name-calling, because how many times can you use reasoning and logic with someone who refuses to see it . . . until frustration sets in? I have no patience for these trolls."

I am not a member of Fair nor am I a troll. What is it about you lefties that can't stand another point of view without hurling insults? I see your side stating the same things over and over also. Pot, kettle, black.

Your side uses no reason or logic. Just misplaced emotionalism for immigration lawbreakers and demonizing anyone who doesn't go along with your anti-American points of view.When I started reading this forum including the other topics there was already name calling going on before I ever started posting. Nice try, but no cigar.

Oppa
Oppa

Nativist turned governor candidate for california Chelene Nightingale has some splainin to do at www.freeplumpervideos.com apparently she posed for porn pics and forgot to mention this to cp members that backed her. "We knew she was hiding stuff, but we had no idea she was a paid ho" comment from a former supporter. Nightingale should apologise for her sick past and give back the money she bilked to a failed campaign.

Coz
Coz

Which is why he beat his wife...

Rob
Rob

True, though same can/should be said about the Republicans and Tea Baggers.Undocumented workers are nothing new, by any means; it's been going on for decades at the benefit of business and lower costs for manufacturers/producers with no thought ever given on the human side. Then, the economy tanks and fingers need to be pointed...who better than a group of people that they've encouraged to come for their benefit that cannot defend themselves?

CooperG
CooperG

You are plainly and simply an ignorant buffoon.

1. "They just don't pay enough to cover their social costs."

You presume that "they are at the poverty level" so they somehow get welfare and social security when you know (or should know, but you're ignorant) they are not FUCKING ELIGIBLE FOR WELFARE OR SOCIAL SECURITY. That is to say, they don't have access to "social programs."

Actually, there are studies from respectable universities and the Congressional Research Service that shows they do pay in to the system more than they take out. I know being ignorant is hard work, but do try to read other things than racist blogs and words of people who think like you do (hint, they're ignorant too).

2. "If allowed to remain here and pay additional taxes they are at the poverty level with many dependaents so therefore they would pay literally no income taxes."

You assume that they are all Catholic baby factories and they will all live in poverty and be drains on society, but you cannot provide any solid evidence of that whatsoever. If fact, studies (only referring to those from respected universities, not groups with axes to grind) show they are more upwardly mobile than you want to believe because they're driven to improve their lives. That's why their kids are in college.

3. "Americans need those jobs at a fair wage and their tax contributions would be much higher."

You clearly have no idea how this works. It's only because they're undocumented that employers think they can pay them less. You assume (wrongly) that they're only paid less. That isn't true. By making them able to work legally, it raises everyone's wages because there is no longer an underground economy. That point shouldn't be hard to understand...unless you're ignorant.

4. "(M)y main objection is to rewarding illegal aliens with allowing them to remain here and what this does to our population growth and the added demands to our resources."

I think your real issue is you don't like what it does to the growth of the Hispanic population (since it's clear Hispanics are "white"). The U.S. is barely at replacement birth level, which means we will need more immigrants to come here to work if we're to maintain any level of economic stability. So by arguing we should close the borders completely until your stupid fence is built without addressing the real economic issues is dooming the U.S. to second world status, which is what you must want, because that's the way the data shows we're headed. And there is NO confirmable proof ANYWHERE that immigrants are an "added demand to our resources."

5. "The last amnesty only encouraged 4 times the number of illegal aliens to jump our borders after that. When is enough, enough?"

That's what happens when you don't address the problem and address only the symptoms--people figure out a way to get around the system and that causes other problems. But, we could have fixed this three years ago, but some clowns decided to scuttle the attempt by screaming "amnesty, amnesty" and killing the bill and the desire to solve the problem. That's YOUR FAULT. This is why I still say you're only interested in perpetuating the problem rather than solve it.

6. "You put illlegal foreigners above the well beiing of your own country and its citizens."

This is why I know you're ignorant. You view disagreement as a lack of patriotism and I'm so far ahead of you in that regard it's laughable. Where I see solving the problem as a way of reducing tension, increasing economic growth on both sides of the border, making it easier for employers to find labor, increasing wages and reducing the need for immigrants to bring their families with them, allowing those here to obtain legal status (NOT citizenship with access to benefits) you see that as capitulating.

Where your ignorance comes in is you can't see that solving the problem addresses every one of your concerns. Every one of them. Now solving the problem isn't hard, but your and Pearce's way ain't it. It's not even close. It only makes it worse.

CooperG
CooperG

Sorry Mark, but I'm pretty up on this stuff. Way more than you are, apparently.

I don't suppose you ever considered that the reason food prices are going up is because they're not planting large crops anymore because they don't have the labor to bring them in? I don't suppose, in your vast reservoir of economic knowledge, you understand that when there is smaller supply to an increasing demand prices go up? No farmer is going to plant everywhere they can knowing a lot of it will go to waste at harvesting time. That's how to go OUT of business.

"But crop pickers only make up 2% of our entire workforce. Most illegals aren't picking crops. They are taking construction jobs and other blue collar jobs that Americans have always done for a fair wage until the cheap, illegal labor came along."

Okay, let's use your numbers (they're wrong). If "crop pickers make up 2% of our entire workforce," and undocumented workers make up 3% of people in the workforce, that means there is only an addition 1% of the jobs out there for the undocumented. So, that other 1% has to include restaurant workers, hotel workers, construction workers, landscapers, etc. My point is they're NOT taking American jobs to the extent you think they are.

As I said before, if that was true (it isn't) then how come the unemployment rate continues to rise as they leave? After all, those jobs are now open, aren't' they? Maybe it's because there are other jobs that are dependent upon their being here as well and when they leave, those jobs leave.

Don't argue economics if you don't understand economics.

Coz
Coz

You are.

CooperG
CooperG

Thank you for arguing that the children born of undocumented parents is a U.S. citizen and they are free to return to this country anytime. I'm glad to see someone on the "deport the parents" side is fully acknowledging that the 14th Amendment grants full citizenship to any child born here.

Chilidawg
Chilidawg

And this is usually what happens when the government deports the parents and the child is still a minor with no relatives to stay with in the U.S.

So What?

The child is still a U.S. Citizen.

Rob
Rob

Reading comprehension and facts are not a strong point for you.

You know, there are actually legitimate arguments to be made for your side. Unfortunately, your unable to recognize or articulate them.

I can look at any right wing white supremacist website and read what you regurgitate.

As Lou Show says...your nothing more than a worthless troll.

CooperG
CooperG

You are soooo full of shit. I mean completely, unadulterated loaded with shit it oozing out of your pores. There are countless examples of businesses, read this slowly, t-r-y-i-n-g to hire Americans to do the work AND THEY CAN'T FIND THEM.

Yuma is the lettuce capital of the country in the Winter and they can't "Americans" who want to do the work. One farmer said he needs 30,000 workers to bring all of his crop in one Winter season and he can't find the workers.

Thirty-fucking thousand workers.

If those are jobs American will do, then how come the population isn't growing like cray in Yuma? If the jobs "illegals" are taking are opening up because they're leave the state, then how come the unemployment rate is still going up? If 100,000 jobs are opening up because they're leaving, then how come Arizona only created 11,800 jobs in the last two years?

Get a clue. Seriously. Get a freaking clue.

There are business owners who raised wages an additional $5/hr to $20/hr and cannot find Americans to do the work. Yes, $20 per hour and Americans won't take the work. How you gonna blame that on "illegals?"

http://www.usatoday.com/money/...

Finally, if you really wanted to solve the problem, which I don't believe for a second you do, you'd want to bring these people into the system so they pay the taxes in the open you don't think they don't pay. But you don't. All you whine about is fact statistics and fake arguments and false options that drag this out for year after year after year after year.

You, sir, are the problem. You and people who think like you are the reason we can't get to a solution to the problem.

Chilidawg
Chilidawg

"I am retired for one thing. Why should an American move to Mexico. . . "=-=======================Why indeed. An adult, who is an American born children of illegal aliens is an American citizen. They should not have to move to Mexico, like you have proposed.

Rob
Rob

There is no incentive to them doing so. Every reason you've stated is either a lie or not fact. You've failed to supply proof of your claims. You conveniently left this off the quote. Nor am I in any sort of denial, rather it is reality and facts.

Let's give logic one more try....Since you focus on Mexicans...How do they get here (and let's work with pregnant ones, right, they are coming here to give birth, or..are they so devious that it's all planned, they come here THEN get pregnant?)...So, let's get back to them getting here. Pregnant Mexican woman just walks across the border? Too simple. Ah, they walk several dozen miles...in the desert. YES, this seems like something any pregnant woman could do! Or, crammed in a vehicle with several others for hours on end? Absolutely!

Do illegals that are here end up getting pregnant when they are here? Absolutely. Is it some sort of devious plot (and you keep referring to reconquista theories)? No. Oh, wait...their offspring will give them a path to citizenship...Sure, in a perfect world and current wait times...figure when the kid turns 18 he can apply...so about 25 years to go that route? But then there's the tricky part of how he was born here to parents who were undocumented...Or is it in hopes of Amnesty, as you like to allude? No sane Mexican is deluded enough to think the US is going to do this.

Finally, I'm working some of your logic. You've said several times that "all/most Native Americans oppose illegal immigration. You've cited as your sole source your wife, whom you claim is Navajo. So your wife speaks for every Native American, correct? Well, I'm of Mexican descent and my wife's Mexican, now a naturalized US citizen. I asked her over dinner how many Mexican women come here to have babies so they can soak the system and become a system. She said none.

So, using your methodology, you now have definitive proof that your theories(well those you regurgitate) are wrong.

Rob
Rob

"The jobs they would take if allowed to remain here would be taken by Americans and they in turn would pay in the same taxes."

Few of these jobs have been open solely for undocumented workers; they were and are available for Americans. Why haven't Americans taken those jobs?

Oh, wait...do you realize that you just recognized that undocumented workers DO pay taxes? That's not what you said before?

Wayne
Wayne

"I am not a member of Fair nor am I a troll. What is it about you lefties that can't stand another point of view without hurling insults? I see your side stating the same things over and over also. Pot, kettle, black."

While you may not be a card carrying FAIR member, your linking to their web sites does mark you as a WANNA-BE member.As for you being a TROLL, you most certainly fall into that category, You do not offer you own opinion on the matter on which you are commenting, you just post verbatim the opinions of persons who are in FAIR and it's hooded sister sites.

You have asked for a open debate and have at least twice been given the OK to start on as long as you can do it with your own reasoning and not parroting the posts from FAIR and so far all you have done is complain about the other posters and continue to post the opinion of others in their own words and not your own.

"Your side uses no reason or logic."Again , you seem incapable of recognizing what reasoning or logic actually are because you are too used to parroting verbatim the verbiage of others and you are not actually researching how or where anything that is presented to you is derived from.

"Just misplaced emotionalism for immigration lawbreakers and demonizing anyone who doesn't go along with your anti-American points of view. "Again the people from fair and it's other hooded sister sites are manipulating your emotions with rhetoric and faulty/ creative math and you again have not bothered to check out how the numbers that they get are arrived at.

As for name calling - every time you drop Anchor baby, Jackpot baby, not only are you attacking infants who are not able to speak for themselves you are name calling yourself.

Now I realize that nothing I write here will in anyway change your thinking since you are a FAIR TROLL but it makes me fell better to know that the other readers will see this and take heart that they are not the only ones that see you for the tool that you plainly are.

Wayne

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