Phoenix News Blog

This piece of slander is utterly pathetic.

C'mon, Steve! Give David Irving credit for one thing! At least he likes girls!

Geseke said:

"The audience consisted of normal people, who were not neo-Nazis, skinheads or KKK members wearing white robes and hoods. In the Q&A session after his talk, it became obvious that the people in the audience were familiar with these documents and were able to ask intelligent questions."

Bullcrap. In Phoenix, the thing was sponsored by the Nationalist Coalition, and had been before. Several prominent local neo-Nazis attended, and people asked anti-Semitic questions pertaining to denying the Holocaust.

There's nothing normal about these meetings or Irving. Why else does he kick out people who are not disruptive and willing to pay? Why does his assistant post thousands of messgaes to Stormfront?

This is exactly what Lemons is talking about. Just be a Nazi, goddammit and stop squirming, will ya?

@Geeke,

Although its lame to assume that these Irving gatherings are not racist or anti-semitic. But 99% of his attendees are attended by known racists and neo-Nazis. Therefore, I wasn't at Jerry's the day Irving had his little powwow. But I believed well known local Nazis did attend his meeting such as the despisable J.T. Ready! Do you remember the saying?--

"If they quack like a duck, walks like a duck then they must be ducks."

Stevie baby,

I suppose you're trying to take Irving down by implying he's a womaniser? Actually, I should have thought that having such an attractive woman as an assistant should be a cause for congratulations, not innuendo. You musn't be bitter because she's a lot more attractive than your woman!

And, by the way, please try not to use the word "thusly" again - the correct word is "thus". I suppose you were too busy hating to pay attention to vocabulary?

Antas is a very sad example--I believe--of a child raised by morons. If she actually did come to the white hate bowel movement on her own, her quote of "Well behaved women don't make history" speaks of a very sad and pathetic young woman who assuredly has behavioral issues...

As for the photos she yanked from StormFront (once the favorite site of Philly shooter Poplawski), I wisely saved them and have them up on my site--all three of them that she had up on there.

We can thank the Portland anarchist ANTIFA for this, good work folks, she's completely outed now.

I would suggest the possibility that Antas is a rube who's a kind of courier for international white hate groups, it's a great way to avoid surveillance of communications. Also, I'd look into her time in Poland "teaching English," as it was less than one year in her own words and because there's a significant white hate movement there as well as here. This was in 2003.

What's the holocaust?

David Irving is a controversial historian that has written best selling books on WW II for about fifty years. He does not say the holocaust didn't happen and actually went to court to defend himself against this accusation. He is one of the few historians that actually speaks German, so rather than repeating what other English speaking historians have already written, he gets the original documents in archives and elsewhere and is able to understand what the original document (in German) means. You would think speaking German would be a requirement to receive your degree if WW I or WW II is your course of study, unfortunately it is not.

Mr. Irving has been attacked in the western press for his views on WW II and the holocaust and at the same time he is one of the most respected historians by his peers (other highly regarded historians). The compliments posted here are from some of the most respected historians in the world.

1: On Hitler's War: "It was thoroughly researched and employed a variety of themes. . . It also confirmed Irving's reputation as one of the world's most thorough researchers and an exciting and readable historian."

- Board of Deputies of British Jews, 1992, secret report

2: On Churchill's War: "Enormous mastery of the sources and ability to maintain a sweep of narrative and command of detail that carry the reader along."

- Professor Donald Cameron Watt

3: On Hitler's War: "No praise can be too high for Irving's indefatigable scholarly industry. He has sought and found scores of new sources, including many private diaries. Mr Irving's craftsmanship as a writer has improved immensely, and I have enjoyed reading his long work from beginning to end."

- Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper

4: On Hitler's War: "This ground is traversed with a sense of immediacy and grasp of detail lacking in many of the recent Führer biographies . . . Mr Irving's mastery of the German sources is superb."

- Professor Donald Cameron Watt

5: On Hitler's War: "DAVID IRVING has ransacked the world's archives; he has discovered eye-witness accounts; he has unearthed diaries and correspondence which were thought to have been destroyed. . . a narrative which is, for all its inevitable complexities, remarkably comprehensible and, surprisingly readable."

- Professor J.E. Molpurgo,
The Yorkshire Post

6: "British historian, David Irving, perhaps the greatest living authority on the Nazi era"

- Professor Stephen Spender,
The New York Times review of books

7: On Goebbels: "Irving does not deny that Jews were horribly butchered or just kept in such conditions as to die in their millions. Nevertheless, the book has received execration in some American pre-publication reviews for its alleged denials of the Holocaust and exculpations of Hitler. . . . There is no truth in these accusations."

- Professor Norman Stone,
The Sunday Times

8: On Goebbels: "David Irving knows more than anyone alive about the German side of the Second World War. He discovers archives unknown to official historians ... His greatest achievement is Hitler's War ... indispensable to anyone seeking to understand the war in the round. Irving as usual, knows more than anyone of the details [of the death of the Goebbels family in 1945]. He does not spare us."

- Professor Sir John Keegan,
The Daily Telegraph

9: On Goebbels: "Some critics, including Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University, have accused Irving of 'trying to destroy the memory of those who . . . perished at the hands of tyrants.' Even a cursory inspection of this new, 700-page plus account [Goebbels] does not support that assertion."

- Professor Francis L. Loewenheim

10: On Goebbels: "Silencing Mr Irving would be a high price to pay for freedom from the annoyance that he causes us. The fact is that he knows more about National Socialism than most professional scholars in his field, and students of the years 1933 1945 owe more than they are always willing to admit to his energy as a researcher and to the scope and vigor of his publications.

- Professor Gordon A Craig

11: "On Göring: "Irving's research effort is awesome."

- Professor Larry Thompson,
The Chicago Tribune

12: On Göring: "At the Nuremberg trials he defended himself with vigour and rebutted some of the charges that had wrongfully been made against him. It also came out in matters of art, on which David Irving is rather good."

- Professor Norman Stone
The New Statesman

13: On Göring: "A very readable book, for Irving has always written with verve and energy. . . It tells us a great deal that we did not know. . . Highly interesting. . . Marvellous stuff.… An absorbing account. . . Most intriguing."

- Professor Gordon A Craig

14: On Churchill's War: "A vivid portrait accompanied by much striking and original analysis. It is certainly no mere repeat of the usual hagiography. Once again David Irving shows himself a master of documentation."

- Professor John Erickson
University of Edinburgh

15: "On Göring: "Irving's research effort is awesome."

- Professor Larry Thompson,
The Chicago Tribune

16: On The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: "... deserves a warm welcome ... Mr. Irving has made splendid use of the Milch papers and other German records which he has been able to study."

- Stephen Roskill
British official historian

17: On Rommel: "Most of Irving's books are big, solid works like this. All are well written, exciting, fun to read, and all contain new information based on sensational discoveries."

- Professor Stephen Ambrose
Washington Post

18: On PQ.17: "David Irving knows how to appraise the unassuming heroism of the ordinary man. From both points of view, his present book on the destruction of convoy PQ.17 is even better than the one which made his name on the bombing of Dresden. It is a melancholy story, with many separate strands leading to disaster."

- Professor A. J. P. Taylor
The Observer

19: On Rommel: ""I am tremendously impressed. . . A superb character study and a fine work."

- Matthew B. Ridgway
General, U.S. Army

20: On The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: "The result is a biography of Milch, slanted as it were towards the Luftwaffe. . . This one is scholarly, fair and highly informative."

- Professor A. J. P. Taylor
The Observer

21: On Rommel: ""A fascinating study of the brilliant Rommel. It enables the reader to experience the emotions of a warrior in battle."

- Mark W. Clark
General, U.S. Army (retired

22: Rommel: David Irving has been so successful in building up a reputation as The Man You Love To Hate that his merits as an historian are too easily forgotten. . . Professional historians have always envied him his immense capacity for work and his astonishing luck in finding new documents; and they should be grateful to him ... But his fellow historians can take nothing but pleasure in [this] work

- Professor Michael Howard
The Times

23:"It is our good fortune to have an Irving. At least he provides fresh stimuli for historians."

-Hans Mommsen Great Grandson of Theodor Mommsen who is generally regarded as the greatest classicist of the 19th century. Theodor Mommsen received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1902

24: On David Irving: "He has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary among historians that he does not deserve to be called an historian at all . . ."

- Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans,
Professor of Modern History at Cambridge
[received $250,000 expert witness fee
in the Lipstadt trial plus $2 million
book contract from one defendant ]

Evans was paid to testify against Irving in the trial. Do you think $250,000 could affected his testimony?

Why don't people stop all the ad hominem nonsense and just read and judge his books for themselves? Many of these are available as free downloads at his website. If Mr. Lemons were credible, he would be pointing this out and urging people to assess Irving's "outlandish" writings by actually scrutinizing them.

All Jews must go!!! Down with the Jews!

I hate Jews: Keep it up, keep spouting, we're smoking you bastards out, the clown show that began with Reagan is ending, you're not going to be allowed to grow like before, it's ending.

With all this verbiage, Mr. Lemons, what's your point? I hope this is not your idea of objective journalism. I was hoping for a real discussion or debate of history. What I find is inflammatory and immature gibberish. I remember the days when journalists took pains to produce a professional piece of writing - well I suppose those days are over.

For those commenters using racial/ethnic slurs, come on now, please act a little more sensible and responsible - your point(s) will be more respected.

DavidIrving is right. If anyone can find any proof of gas-chambers please let us know. Until then he and others will keep speaking, no matter how much it gets your panties soiled.

I think you all expect too much from Lemons, he's not a journalist. He's a blogger. The difference is, it takes talent and respect to be a journalist, it only takes an Internet connection to be a blogger.

If no one is a Jew on here, then where are all the Jews?

Its usually a white gentile or a non-white admonishing scathing vitriol at the Kraut of the Turd Reich. We know the neo-Nazis are losing, and the Obama(w/ Manet the "Police State Extremist")administration is KKKracking down on the neo-Nazi movement. There are numerous arrests and apprehensions of the lesser white supremacists being taken down.
As a proven tool, law enforcement is an effective method in terms of fighting white power. Everybody knows that the white supremacists are anti-law(excluding arpaio). You're gonna get arrested Nazi!!

Doh!: I wouldn't disparage bloggers. If Mr. Lemons is classed as one, it is an insult to other bloggers. I have read numerous, wonderfully informative, well-researched, and eloquent pieces by bloggers. What I read above was an utter disappointment.

I think its disgusting and unprofessional to post his assistants mypsace account and drag her into his attack.

Holocaust Revisionism in One Easy Lesson:
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-HoloRev.html

I think it makes a strong case, and in the reading on this topic that I've done, I haven't found significant errors of fact. Of course it can only be looked at as a starting point, because it contains few if any footnotes or references. It's up to the interested reader to verify the claims of fact that are made within it.

I'm certainly glad I am still free to post this information in the USA without fear of criminal prosecution. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for those living in Germany, Austria, Australia too now apparently, in fact much of Europe ...

So is David Irving actually banging this Antas-Pussy?

(On his blog he says that they had the same hotel room in Vegas. But he says they had different beds. Is he dissing us or what?)

What should they call the bombing of Dresden on Feb 13-14, 1945? The Luthercaust?

How can you say six million Jews died during WWII when the numbers at Auschwitz have dropped dramatically?

The original plaque there said that four million Jews were killed.

In the 1990's, that number was revised down to 2.5 million Jews.

Last Fall, the Israeli paper Haaretz said that 1.1 million died, including gypsies, homos and other dissidents.

So why do we keep hearing the number 6 million?

And if we wre lied to about Auschwitz and the soap made from human fat and the holocaust books that have been shown to be fiction, what else have we been lied to about the holocaust?

Anyone not familiar with David Irving should read his work and critique of it by others. His articles are available onine, in abundance.

Effort to silence an author, especially one focused on historical research, is very telling.

Freedom of speech is the pillar of liberty.

Do your own analysis of Mr Irving's work and decide for yourself.

So the 4 million deaths at Auschwitz-Birkenau were NEVER accepted in the West?

At the Nuremberg IMT, did the American, British and French prosecutors jump up in unison and say that they didn't accept the charges by the Soviet Union that 4 million were killed at Auschwitz? Did any of the defense attorneys leap to their feet and say "Objection, assuming facts not in evidence."?

The Iron Curtain came down in 1989, and the plaques with the 4 million figure were removed in 1990, but the plaques with 1.5 million were not installed until 1995. The death books from Auschwitz were released at the request of Ernst Zündel in 1989, but it took another 6 years before the 1.5 million plaques were placed at Birkenau.

When I graduated from high school in the 1970's I went to a high school with a big jewish population. Most of my friends were jewish. In my junior or senior year in high school we spent a month or two learning poems written about concentration camp victims and the treatment of jews. I can't remember who wrote these poems. I could never find them after high school. One of the poems was about skinning jews and making soap and lampshades out of this. I remember sinking in my seat and saying nothing. My parents immigrated to the US from Germany after the war.

I went to speak to my teacher to complain of the subject. I contested what was being said. His reply was, it was all true. He was jewish, but I guess one of his grandmothers was German, because he told me that as something of a defense. I remember my father being very upset at what I was being taught. The late 1960's / early 1970's was when the holocaust became an every day topic in the media and movies. Its bigger than ever today.

Now we are told the soap/lampshades from skin story was a lie. There hasn't been any official announcement on this matter, but that has been determined now.

After I spoke to my teacher, I went to speak to the principal to complain about what was being taught in my class. I said my teacher (actually there were two teachers teaching this class) was prejudiced against Germans. I remember the principal said that was a serious charge and I replied that I knew it was. Nothing happened, the class went on.

WTF?? It's like a Nazi infestation up in this comments section.

Whoa....we got us a gaggle of wild tards here!! Where to begin?

Ok tards, look away from your SS posters for a few seconds, put your cock back in your pants, and read carefully.

-To the brilliant historian who noted that the Iron Curtain came down in 1989, yet the plaque at Auschwitz wasn't taken down until 1990..I totally see your point. I mean, with the entire economy collapsing, the regime totally removed, and all the turmoil that plagued Eastern Europe(and still does) since 1989, it makes PERFECT sense that the first thing they should have done is change the sign at Auschwitz.

-Those who were to be gassed(there were many, many people at Auschwitz who were killed by means other than gas, and were not Jewish, such as Soviet POWs) upon arrival were not registered. Documents show that they were rounded up in their countries, documents show that they got on trains, documents show that those trains had such and such amount of people on them, but then upon arrival, despite such and such amount of people registered, portions of the trains' passengers just disappear, and the camp's population records don't show a corresponding rise in population. In other words, to break it down into easy numbers for my drooling audience:

5,000 people arrested in country X, 5,000 people on train bound for camp Y. Said train arrives at camp Y, population 10,000. 200 people registered, camp population records show 10,200 for population thereafter.

If those people showed up somewhere else, its on the Holocaust deniers to show where they went. Incidentally, similar methods were used in examining the NKVD records to prove their involvement in the execution of Polish officers at Katyn- yet I don't see Holocaust deniers falling over each other to debunk that theory. Oh and speaking of Katyn....

It is illegal in Poland to deny "Soviet atrocities". For some reason the champions of free speech like David Irving have nothing to say about that. In Romania it is illegal to publicly praise the late dictator Ceausescu- I guess by denier logic, Katyn must have been done by the Nazis, and Ceausescu was a great man.

Regardless of whether Holocaust denial laws are right or wrong, the fact is that these people are not being arrested for "doing research". They have not been arrested because they were found in a library, or going over archival documents. They are arrested because certain governments don't tolerate their accusations against entire ethnic groups.

By the way- yes, there were some claims, some at Nuremburg even, which were not true. It would be foolish to imagine that everything that went on at Nuremburg was just. In fact, some rulings at Nuremburg which WERE just, such as punishment for waging aggressive war, are not applied to the US and UK, among many other countries today. That is also injustice. That being said, the Holocaust deniers have consistently failed to explain certain key facts(incidentally facts they rarely allude to in their literature, only acknowledging them when challenged), and they have also failed miserably at explaining what really happened.

Here is a link about death toll calculation at Auschwitz. But given your last post, I wonder what point you even intend to make. Assuming we are only talking about Jews, you seem to agree with Irving's claims that a large amount of Jews were indeed gassed at Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor. When we combine that with those killed by the Einsatzgruppen, and then those executed in ghettoes or deliberately starved there, one wonders as to how attempting to chip away at the Auschwitz death toll actually makes the Nazis appears any better.

In 1943 the German army discovered thousands of massacred Poles in the Katyn Forest. The Germans announced what they found to the world and the British immediately claimed the Germans had committed the atrocities. For many years western countries claimed Germany had murdered these 22,000 Poles.

On April 13, 1990, fifty years after the massacre, the USSR for the first time admitted its responsibility for the murders. The whole controversy was finally laid to rest when Boris Yeltsin, handed over the secret files on Katyn to the Polish president, Lech Walesa, on October 14, 1992.
While this is a fact, it got little attention or none at all in the western press.

The man who signed the orders to murder the 22,000 Poles was a Soviet Jew who subsequently moved to Israel. It is assumed that he still lives in Israel today. The NKVD (Soviet Secret Police) had many jews in it and the top man in the NKVD was jewish at various times.

The Poles have requested the extradition of several jews living in Israel that were involved in war crimes during WW II. Solomon Morel was a Polish jew that ran a concentration camp set up at the end of the war to hold mostly German citizens. Many thousands of Germans were murdered and raped under Morel's orders. Those killed and raped included young children. Morel died in Tel Aviv in 2007.

Lithuania wanted to request the extradition of the head of the Yad Vashem memorial in Israel. He was a Soviet partisan during WW II and is accused of murdering Lithuanian citizens during the war. Lithuania backed off on its request when Israel flatly stated they would not extradite the man for trial.

The WW II allies have been lying and falsely accusing Germans of crimes they did not commit while denying any wrongdoing themselves since the end of the war.

When fascism comes to America, it will be presented as anti-fascism. When haters crush freedom & dissent, it will be called crushing "hate". David Irving's enemies are haters par excellence.

Hi, Sara. Please send a picture of yourself, so we can see what you look like and compare you with Irving's blond aide. Someone said you were fat and ugly, another said you were a fugly yenta. Come on, send us a picture, we want to disprove the those comments.

Craig's right. The homosexuals should be gassed right along with the Jews, just as they were WWII, eh Craiggy? Guess Lemons wouldn't have survived long if SS Lt. Craig Buttfuhrer (Craig's grampa)had his way. Plus he's fat. And all fat people should die.

Craig, when you unwrap your lips from David Irving's wrinkled,liver-spotted manhood, try reading a little history for a change, like the following, from Professor Lipstadt's site,(http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/pl2/IIID):

Pronouncements by Leading National Socialists on the Exterminations

1.While the regional mass murders were being effected in the autumn of 1941, the pronouncements of leading representatives of the regime which openly addressed the impending "anihilation" of the Jews, were becoming ever more frequent. At Hitler's "Table Talk" of 25 October, after having once again made reference to his "prophesy" of 30 January 1939, he made the following remarks:
This criminal race has the two million dead from the World War on its conscience, now again hundreds of thousands. No one can say to me: we can't send them in the morass! Who then cares about our people? It is good if the terror we are exterminating Jewry goes before us.274
2.In a lead article of the journal "Das Reich" of 16 November 1941, Goebbels returned to the subject of Hitler's prophesy of 30 January 1939 under the title "The Jews are to Blame" ("Die Juden sind schuld"):
We are now experiencing the fulfilment of this prophesy; and Jewry is inspired by a fate which, although hard is still more than deserved. Here compassion or regret is completely amiss.275
3.His formulation, that "World Jewry" is "now" succumbing to "a gradual process of extermination"276, made clear the fate which awaited the Jews who were being deported from the German cities for the past few weeks. Two days later, Rosenberg spoke at a press conference of the Ministry of the Eastern Territories of what was to come - the "eradication"of the Jews of Europe:
There are still about six million Jews in the East and this question can only be solved through a biological eradication of all of Jewry in Europe. The Jewish Question will only be solved for Germany, when the last Jew has left German territory; and for Europe, when there is no longer a Jew left standing on the European continent - up until the Urals [...] And for this it is necessary to push them over the Urals, or otherwise eradicate them.277
4.One day after declaring war on the USA, on 12 December, Hitler held a speech before the district (Gau) and Reich leaders) of the Party. Referring once more to his "prophesy" of 30 January 1939, he announced the "extermination" of Jews under German domination. This can be found in the Goebbels diaries:
As concerns the Jewish question, the Führer is determined to make a clean sweep. He had prophesied to the Jews that if they once again brought about a world war they would experience their own extermination. This was not just an empty phrase. The World War is there, the extermination of Jewry must be the necessary consequence. This question must be seen without sentimentality. We are not here in order to have sympathy with the Jews, rather we sympathise with our own German people. If the German people has now once again sacrificed as many as 160.000 dead in the Eastern campaign, then the authors of this bloody conflict must pay with their lives.278
5.Thus at the end of 1941, leading National Socialists were urging to extend the mass murders started in the occupied areas East and South East for the purpose of a general annihilation of the Jews.
Notes265. Ibid., pp. 86ff.
266. IfZ, NG 3354; Manoschek, Serbien, p. 104
267. IfZ, NG 3354; Manoschek, Serbien, p. 102.
268. 'für jeden getöten oder ermordeten deutschen Soldaten oder Volksdeutschen (Männer, Frauen oder Kinder) 100 Gefangene oder Geiseln', 'für jeden verwundeten deutschen Soldaten oder Volksdeutschen 50 Gefangene oder Geiseln'.
269. ' alle Kommunisten, als solche verdächtige männliche Einwohner, sämtliche Juden, eine bestimmte Anzahl nationalistischer und demokratisch gesinnter Einwohner' Manoschek, Serbien, pp. 84f.
270. Manoschek, Serbien, pp. 96f.
271. Ibid. p. 86.
272. PAA, Inland IIg 104, Bericht Rademacher 7.11.41; Manoschek, Serbien, pp. 102ff
273. See below, p. 74.
274. 'Diese Verbrecherrasse hat die zwei Millionen Toten des Weltkrieges auf dem Gewissen, jetzt wieder Hunderttausende. Sage mir keiner: Wir können sie doch nicht in den Morast schicken! Wer kümmert sich denn um unsere Menschen. Es ist gut, wenn uns der Schrecken vorangeht, daß wir das Judentum ausrotten.' Jochmann (ed.), Monologe, 25.10.41
275. 'Wir erleben eben den Vollzug dieser Prophezeiung, und es erfüllt sich damit am Judentum ein Schicksal, das zwar hart, aber mehr als verdient ist, Mitleid oder Bedauern ist da gäanzlich unangebracht.' Das Reich, 16.11.41.
276. 'Weltjudentum', 'nun einen allmählichen Vernichtungsprozeß'. Ibid.

At Majdanek, there are two identical buildings, side by side, which contain the gas chambers that were found intact by the Soviets. At first, the Soviets announced that both of these buildings contained gas chambers. Then they realized that all the clothes from the three Operation Reinhard camps had been sent to Majdanek to be disinfected, so they announced that one of these buildings contained disinfection gas chambers for delousing clothing. Tourists are not allowed to see the disinfection chambers.

There is also one fabricated gas chamber at Majdanek. It is in the reconstructed crematorium building. The Germans allegedly burned down the original building just hours before Soviet soldiers liberated the camp.

The original Majdanek gas chambers are the only ones that have visible Prussian blue stains left by the Zyklon-B used to gas the prisoners.

At the Nuremberg IMT, the Soviet prosecutors charged the Nazis with killing 1.5 million people at Majdanek. Now the Majdanek Museum says that, based on the records found, the actual total was 78,000, of which 59,000 were Jews.

The guy who was forced to build the gas chamber at Sachsenhausen was also forced to build an execution room there. Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen were the only camps that had such a room and both of these camps were in the Soviet zone of occupation. Both of these execution rooms have since been destroyed, although the Buchenwald execution room has been reconstructed for the tourists.

Dachau, in the American zone of occupation, was a comparable camp, but it did not have an execution room that was used to shoot Soviet POWs in the neck. Instead, the Soviet POWs at Dachau were cruelly shot for target practice at a nearby firing range.

A group of Congressmen visited Dachau on May 1, 1945 and wrote a report in which they described the gas chamber. On May 3, 1945, the Americans made a film about the Dachau gas chamber that was shown as evidence at the Nuremberg IMT. The gas chamber in the film did not look the way the Congressmen described it.

To Anirb:

The Nazis killed prisoners with bats? You mean baseball bats? The prisoners played soccer and had boxing matches at the camps, but I've never heard of any baseball games, so where did they get the bats? The soccer field at Birkenau was right by Gas Chamber number III and the players could watch the Jews going into the gas chamber to the accompaniment of classical music as the camp orchestra practiced nearby.

The purpose of the gas chambers was to give the Jews a merciful death, so why did they continue shooting, hanging and working people to death? That just defeated the whole purpose of the gas chambers.

You asked what is the purpose of dwelling on events so many years after they happened. The reason is that when the events in World War II happened, they were reported in America only from the American point of view. Some people find it interesting to hear both sides of the story.

During World War II, propaganda was not a bad word. Each side tried to present events so as to put themselves in a favorable light and demonize the other side. In his books, David Irving writes the German side of the story of World War II, based on German documents and interviews with German people who were alive during the war.

Soviet soldiers raped 2 million German women in the war. Many were gang raped in front of their families then the entire family was murdered when they were done raping.

British and Americans committed war crimes too.

Dresden: A Documentary on the biggest bomber attack of WW II

In February 1945, three months before WW II ended, British and American forces attacked the German city of Dresden. An estimated 135,000 people died in two days of bombing that burned the city to the ground. While examining "Operation Thunderclap", American President Roosevelt declared the German people might have to be "castrated" to make them an extinct people. Its very interesting that Russians would make a documentary like this while British and Americans "deny" the war crime.

Three part documentary (in Russian with subtitles):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDauzYrBVJE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49EwgusnL4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsvnKjHMgwE&feature=related

Two million German women were raped in 1945, but we will never know how many women were raped by the Germans and their allies, because despite plenty of reports that it happened(no less credible than many of the German claims, which are also eyewitness reports), as per Hitler's orders, German soldiers were not to be prosecuted for rape on the Eastern front, among other crimes, such as murder. More importantly, documentation is now available regarding Nazi Germany's sex slave trafficking, which used non-Jewish girls mainly from Poland and the occupied Soviet Union. These women were forced to work in German military brothels, as well as the concentration camp brothels. They to are the victims of rape, who only recently have even been acknowledged.

As for Dresden, you're a bit behind the curve. The death toll at Dresden could not have exceeded 30,000. It is more likely around 25,000 if not lower. By comparison, 40,000 civilians died in the first day's bombing of Stalingrad, the largest death toll for a single day in the European theatre. You can find the sources for this in Dresden by Frederick Taylor.

As for Roosevelt's alleged quote, I'd love to see you provide it- but of course it is completely meaningless because precisely the opposite happened- the Western allies demanded that Germany be divided(Stalin wanted a neutral, unoccupied Germany), and then they proceeded to dump billions into the West Germany state for decades.

No Aslan, you are ignorant. Watch the Russian documentary. Only the British and American murderers quote these minimized numbers. The German government goes along because it wants good relations with its allies and doesn't want to give the far right in Germany ammunition. Watch the Russian documentary produced two years ago. They quote the same number the American author Kurt Vonnegut uses in his last book published - 135,000 killed. So before you shoot your mouth off, watch the documentary I posted above. Have you heard of Kurt Vonnegut big mouth? He was an American soldier in Dresden when the bombing occurred.

German soldiers were forbidden from raping women. Soviet soldiers were encouraged to rape the German women.

In the atmosphere we live in you can make up any lie you want about Germans and its immediately accepted as fact. The Germans have been demonized so that when they are accused of something its automatically considered to be the truth. Just like Katyn and so many other things.

Once more I suggest before you shoot your ignorant mouth off that you watch the youtube documentary I posted. Of course Americans and British defend what they did. They're perfect, right? Not one of them has ever been accused of a war crime or doing anything wrong in the entire war. Only a complete idiot like yourself could believe that.

One more thing. The numbers are available how much money Germany received from the USA after the war. This was the Marshall Plan and they received less money than Great Britain or France.

In return the USA got its space program, , its missiles, the Jet, the rocket, aerospace leadership for forty years and companies they stole from Germany like the pharmaceutical manufacturers Merck and Schering-Plough. The list goes on an on.

Another truckload of fail from Peter. First off, I'll take Frederick Taylor's word over Kurt Vonnegut, with all due respect to the dead. And NO SHIT I KNOW HOW VONNEGUT IS- Frederick Taylor directly addresses Vonnegut's claims in his book. So that's one fail laid to rest. So you can take your documentary and jam it up your ass, because realistic estimates based on the latest data support the figures I gave.

Next up, your bullshit about German soldiers forbidden to rape. This is quite easy: German soldiers were not to be prosecuted for rape on the Eastern Front, so no charges were brought up. Rapes were reported by victims however. German policy in Western territories was much different, though rape occured in Czechoslovakia during the invasion of that country in 1938. See Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad for reference to the first point, Blood, Tears and Folly by Len Deighton for the other, right from the mouth of a German witness. And if I recall correctly Geoffery Roberts deals with the issue in Victory at Stalingrad as well. Totally ignored the women trafficking issue I see. Interestingly enough, the practice continues in Germany today, and German businessmen are prime customers for sex-slaves.

Now as for Joachim Hoffmann, let him present evidence of the Soviet gas vans if he has it. And Viktor Suvorov? Apparently you know little about the man. Suvorov is a complete joke, nearly every paragraph the man rights is hilarious. His theories are easily countered by basic knowledge about military technology of the day and strategy, or more specifically by works of German Generals such as Halder and Erhard Rauss(specifically Russian Combat Methods of WWII). And Stalin's plan to conquer Europe? Seriously, have you considered comedy writing?

Ok now where were we? Oh right, some bullshit about how the Americans and British considered using nerve gas on Germany but Hitler didn't. Awww. What a nice guy that Hitler- he only STARTED A WAR THAT KILLED OVER 50 MILLION PEOPLE. WHAT A FUCKING AWESOME GUY NOT TO USE ANY NERVE GAS! Oh wait...I've just been handed a note. Let's see....it says that, oh right, of course- the Germans' plan for Lebensraum entailed not only destruction of Europe's Jews but depopulation of European Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine to be resettled with Germans. German planners knew that Germany would have to feed the entire Wehrmacht out of Russia in the first year of the war there, to replace supplies they were otherwise getting under the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement. In the discussion of this topic, it was decided that "umpteen million people will starve."

But hey....AT LEAST THEY DIDN'T USE GAS...UH...I MEAN, NERVE GAS!!!

It seems to me that your goal here is to basically drag the whole argument into the mud. Yes, more non-Jews were killed in WWII. But if their respective peoples do not remember them and memorialize them as much as the Jews do for their dead- is that the Jews' fault? There are many Holocaust researchers, some of them Jewish, who do believe that the Holocaust should not be all about the Jews. Problem is though, is that when Holocaust revisionists start out attacking the Jewish element of the Holocaust, they soon turn to defending EVERY action of the Nazis. They are always specific about what DIDN'T HAPPEN, and vague as to what did.

Oh and thanks for pointing out that Germany received less than France and Britain in the Marshall Plan- while ignoring that what Germany did receive was a far cry from mass castration. It is only to be expected that the Americans would help the bankrupt British(who were screwed almost from the beginning of the war) and the other victims of the Nazis a little more at first.

Oh sure, the Vietnam War was a ruse, never happened. ;0)Good one Aslan.

Hey! Wasn't this all about David Irving and his girl Friday?! ;0) LMAO

Watch how they wiggle-and-squirm.

Vonnegut was wrong about another aspect of the Nazi-period: that Hitler was legally elected. He was not. NSDAP took a lot of seats in the 1933 elections--as did the German Communist Party--but Hitler lost to Hindenburg. He threw such a fit with his Brown Shirts in the streets over it that Von Papen "hired" him and made him Chancellor in the Cabinet as well as allowing a couple other square-heads in. The rest, as they say, is history.

Pal Joey: Yes, those who were denying sometimes came from the very same political matrix as Holocaust deniers with one major exception: they were wielding massive political power, more specifically the Republican Party and their very wealthy backers.

Holocaust deniers aren't jailed in America, but sometimes are in Canada, Austria, Germany, and all the other nations that outlaw "hate speech." There are arguments pro-and-con for doing so. In Germany and Austria, I frankly agree with the policy--once was enough.

But to even deny that the Shoah occurred is to have no credibility, to fight against an avalanche of unimpeachable evidence, and to look like more of a buffoon and a sociopath than perhaps one already is.

By-the-way: yes, yes indeed, the British government lied about the Lusitania...and? That has to do with the Holocaust because? The Lusitania was at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean and was very hard to reach while the truth was being hidden away in FO archives, yes, mmm-hmm. That's true, but what's not true is a lack of documentation left behind by the perpetrators of the Holocaust as well as the camps themselves, the mass graves, the witnesses and survivor testimonies, and so on. Big difference there...

You can voice your opinion all you want about it in America, but take your licks along with the hollow earth crowd (sometimes the same people as Shoah deniers) and the flat-earthers, everyone has a right to criticize you, a definite fringe minority.

Interesting that right away the term "denier" is used. Questioning is not denying.
Matt's statement: "even deny that the Shoah occurred is to have no credibility" ......so let those that deny or question the event. Let them make fools of themselves if that's the case. Allow them to freely to do so rather than name call, threaten, or imprison.
Matt, I really like the unsupportable phrase "definite fringe minority"

Damn Peter, you have reached levels of fail so high, that I have no choice but to go through this line by line. I was hoping it wouldn't come to that. Well here we go...

"I will restate here Aslans's "proof" that Dresden happened as he said and Kurt Vonnegut, Russian researchers, David Irving and so many others are wrong. He says, "Frederick Taylor directly addresses Vonnegut's claims in his book. So that's one fail laid to rest."

Thats Aslan's "proof". Thats it. Those reading this should probably read the above "proof" again so that you can fully comprehend it."

Here's a better idea- go out and find the book, and see how he directly addresses Soviet claims, those of Vonnegut, and Irving, and also the newly revealed archival evidence he relied on. It's called Dresden, the author is Frederick Taylor. Have fun.

"No wonder you lie about Germany's crimes so much. If thats what you call sufficient proof, that certainly explains how you could lie about Katyn and blame it erroneously on the Germans for fifty years. Have the Russians, Americans and British ever apologized for this lie that they propagated for fifty years?"

Who is claiming the Germans did Katyn? In case you hadn't heard- the Americans and the British refused to allow Katyn to be prosecuted as a German crime- American propaganda about Katyn was publicized as far back as the late-40s, early 50s. There are several memorials to Katyn, including at least one in the US.

"When Dresden was bombed, the dead were calculated by authorities at that time already. The authorities there counted 135,000 dead. In new evidence to support what has been said for 50 years already, David Irving has revealed how the British at Bletchley Park decoded intercepted German messages to support the 135,000 dead figure. Do you have any evidence of this kind to support any of your lies, excuse me, your claims."

As I said, the evidence directly refuting this is contained in the book to which I alluded: According to official German report Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47") issued on 22 March the number of dead recovered by that date was 20,204, including 6,865 who were cremated on the Altmarkt square, and the total number of deaths was expected to be about 25,000[85][86][87] Another report on 3 April put the number of corpses recovered at 22,096.[85] The municipal cemetery office recorded 21,271 victims of the raids were buried in the city cemeteries, of which 17,295 were placed in the Heidefriedhof cemetery (a total that included the ashes of those cremated on the Altmarkt). Due to the number of dead and lack of labour for collection of bodies for burial and cremation, those found in shelters were cremated where they lay by flamethrowers.[88] These numbers were probably supplemented by a number of additional private burials in other places.[85] A further 1,858 bodies of victims were found during the rebuilding of Dresden between the end of the war and 1966.[89] Since 1989 despite the extensive excavation for new buildings no war-related bodies have been found.[89] The number of people registered with the authorities as missing was 35,000; around 10,000 of those were later found to be alive.[82]

Oh shit huh?

"I'll take the word of the Russians and a British historian on this. Obviously you have no interest in the "truth" in this case because its about British and American war crimes. But I'm sure you would watch the Russian documentary it if it was a clip on the holocaust."

The British historian is a discreditted one. His dishonest techniques were made a matter of public court record thanks to his own actions.

"All of your claims about rape, Dresden and everything else you state are backed up with no evidence at all."

Clearly you cannot READ Peter. I have provided souces for all my claims about rape on the Eastern Front. I might also add that there is no evidence that the Red Army encouraged soldiers to rape, and there is Soviet documentary evidence showing that rape was to be punished by death, summarily. There are eyewitness accounts of these sentences being carried out. Problem was of course, that these rules were often flaunted.

Again, the relevant sources are:

Stalingrad and The Fall of Berlin by Anthony Beevor(those are two separate books)

Victory at Stalingrad by Geoffry Roberts

"When the lies about the holocaust are revealed and someone writes an international best seller that translated into 18 languages and is celebrated as a great book for years, Aslan just dismisses it and says some people lie."

Yes, some people lie. What does that prove? As I said, many people completely fabricate lies about their experiences in famous wars, sometimes building entire careers off of them, living a secret life. Yet their existence does not cast doubt on the reality of those wars or the battles in which they claimed to have taken place.

" The problem is you accept all these lies as proof that the Germans were as evil as you say and the reason you accept the lies is that you have been taught how terrible the Germans are since the day you were born. You are not only dumb Aslan, you are a bigot."

Funny how you racialists get so upset that you automatically make assumptions about your opponents. I do not hate Germans, I do not hold the German people accountable for the Holocaust. The Nazi leadership was responsible, and they controlled the German people of that era by exploiting human weaknesses that are present in all of us.

"Also, when I said the Soviets gang raped 2 million German women thats not completely accurate. Most of the 2 million were raped by the Soviets, but Americans and Brits also raped German women. I'll bet Frederick Taylor didn't mention that in his book."

Yeah...Frederick Taylor didn't really mention that BECAUSE HIS FUCKING BOOK IS ABOUT DRESDEN. DID YOU NOT NOTICE THE TITLE OF THE BOOK?

"But thats not all. From Gordon Williamson's "Loyalty is My Honor ": "After the Normandy invasion, for example, over 400 American soldiers were court-martialled for rape and murder. Almost 200 cases of rape against French women resulted in courts martial, and 49 American servicemen were hanged". I'll bet you never read or saw a documentary on this Aslan. Why do you suppose this isn't written about or had a TV documentary made on this subject. "

It was good of the American army to prosecute and punish those responsible for the rapes- unlike the Wehrmacht which did not hold their personnel on the Eastern front accountable for rape, theft, or murder. 8 million civilians in the Soviet Union alone, just remember that.

Now if you insist on becoming my personal court jester, I suggest you try to defend Suvorov some more- that will generate some HUGE laughs.

Another thing asshole. I'm not a racialist or a racist, but you are an ignorant bigot. I know more about WW II than you and could teach your Frederick Taylor a few things. Both my parents lived through WW II (in Germany, not Great Britain or the USA) and my mother walked thru bombed out cities and even was in Dresden once. We talked about these things everyday. I got my information from someone that was there, not a historian like Taylor that was not there and doesn't want to face up to British and American guilt.

My mother was captured and mistreated horribly by Russians you asshole. How dare you instruct me on this subject you know nothing. Go poke your face in another book that confirms all your prejudices and ignore the evidence you don't like you ignoramus. You think because you read a few books from men that were never there and have no objectivity whatsoever that you know something. You are a sad example of a human being.

Frederick Taylor and you are real deniers. Look at the Russian video I posted above denier. Why do you think Taylor would know more than the Russians? The Russians were in Dresden. Americans and Brits weren't. So your historians are just making things up.

Peter is to be pitied, if he's telling the truth about himself. Of course, Holocaust deniers are liars, who convince only other anti-semites. So it would not surprise me if he is lying here. If you are not lying Peter, I suggest you provide proof that your mom was gang-raped by Russians. Photographs, film of the rape, physical evidence, a paternity test proving you're the offspring of a Russian sergeant...that sort of thing. We can't take your mother's word for anything, mind you. Perhaps she was paid for services rendered.

BTW, David Irving is not respected by other historians Peter. He is a joke of a man. He did receive some plaudits from legitimate historians earlier in his career. But the Lipstadt v. Irving thing was the end of him, brought on by his own hubris. Remember, it was Irving who very stupidly sued Lipstadt, and lost.

In 2000, Judge Charles Gray, in a meticulous, lengthy decision, found the following:

"Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied on by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews."

He also found Irving to be an anti-semite,a racist, a Holocaust denier, a biased historian who twists facts to serve his ends. He's a pathetic old man, shuttling from backwater to backwater, preaching to as many semi-retarded dullards as he can find.

As for the dead of Dresden, cry me a river. The Krauts started the bloody war, and we finished it for them. Germany invaded Poland, Peter. Look it up. Or would you care to deny that one as well? Go ahead and try.

To the filthy animal Mighty Quinn. I never said my mother was gang raped. I said she was mistreated horribly. I would never give details to anyone of something so personal, just as my mother cried and was only general in what she told me.

The evidence of women that were raped is all over youtube in video. Also, I am not a holocaust denier.

Thanks Peter for sharing your family story. I wish we could hear more from those on the "other side" who were personally affected. As you know the victor always writes the history books - for me personally, I'd like to hear both sides and, more importantly, the truth. I've been finding more and more WWII books authors inserting desparaging (subjective) comments when discussing Hitler and Third Reich. Their comments frequently are not needed/add little value/not supported. I suppose they are expected to make such remarks. Additionally, USHMuseum has been recently handfeeding the public "new" films/photos showing German soldiers and support crew away from their wartime activities. What I dislike there is the Museum adding comments telling the viewer what you should think/feel. Of course, the comments are subjective and unsupportable. Let's enjoy them for what they are: a snapshoot in time during a monsterous war. Person with commonsense, intellect, world experience and can see through all this. Other than that the general public is doomed by learning history through tv/film Hogan's Heroes, Rat Patrol, or any other Hollywood-conjured script.

Aslan, the Germans neither started what became WW2 or the civilian saturation bombing. Both were started by the Brits,
seee Advance To Barbarism by the British
historian F.J.P. Veale. The "holocaust"
never happened, see works by Butz, Rassinier, Faurisson, Rudolph, Sanning,
Mattogno, Graf and others. The Communists
did kill 50 million in the USSR and 100 million in China. See Mao:The Untold story.
The rapes of millions of German women were
a major war crime and are not excused by anything that happened in Russia and nothing comparable to that mass raping did happen in Russia. At least 135,000 were murdered at Dresden and the actual figure is much higher. Germany Must Perish was favorably reviewed in mainstream publications. It was not a minimal affair.
There was no Nazi sex slavery and how could there be orders to shoot rapists on sight by the Red Army when they were doing all the raping ????!!!!! Goering's quote was not false anymore than Goebbels prediction of a coming Iron Curtain. Aslan, you are a
Communist apologist and historical liar of the first degree.

Aslan, you're just taking the Russian, Czech & Polish women's account of being raped @ face value. Yes, there were rapes, but it can be said that quite a few Polish, Czech, Russian & Jewess women had voluntary sex with German soldiers & say they're raped because they don't want to admit that they voluntarily did it. As written, rape trials are usu. he said she said cases & plenty of cases which you call rapes were in fact Russian, Czech & Jewess women voluntarily having sex with German soldiers.

With Dresden, no, there's no excuse to deliberately bomb civilians, but alas that was the policy of WW2 & both sides did it. Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki just happened to be the deadliest.

Aslan, you downplay the fact that Stalin's Jewish henchmen committed Stalin's biggest Holocaust. You call the Soviet atrocities as retaliation, but some would say that the Holocaust was retaliation-Stalin's Jewish henchmen send millions of Gentiles to their deaths in the 1920s & 1930s USSR & the Nazis deeds of sending millions (whether it's 4,5 or the official 6 million) of Jewish men, women & children to their deaths during the Holocaust was indirect retaliation.

You say you oppose collective guilt, yet you're only applying it the Germans because of what the Nazis did, when the same collective guilt can be applied to the Jews for what Stalin's Jewish henchmen did & if 1 looks @ who Stalin's henchmen were, a disproportionate # of them were Jewish. You also critiqued Joachim Hoffmann & Viktor Suvorov for raising Soviet gas vans, when Joachim Hoffmann admits that the Soviet gas vans are a minor part-considering that starving & working prisoners to death in the GULag account for most of the deaths. The Soviet Cheka squads beat, shot & tortured prisoners-why should it surprise you if the USSR did use gas vans before the Nazis did?

With regard to your criticism of Viktor Suvorov, what has been found out is that when he 1st discussed Stalin's Communist ambitions in 1990, his views were rejected up through the late 1990s. However since declassified Soviet documents have been found, some historians have come to support Viktor Suvorov's conclusions & many more historians have moderated their views on Operation Barbarossa.

Unsure if Stalin was going to attack in Fall 1941 but what will be said is that EVENTUALLY, Stalin would've attacked Europe & Asia. As to Viktor Suvorov, this poster found that this man used to work for the Soviet military intelligence & Viktor Suvorov is an expert on military matters. Aslan, you disparage Viktor Suvorov because you don't like his conclusions about Operation Barbarossa & the fact that many historians who previously discarded his view have since moderated.

Finally, if Hitler will be discussed neutrally, then the things about him good & bad must be discussed. Hitler did make the Eagle the National Symbol & Hitler did sign laws to protect the Eagle. While Hitler's diet from 1931 onwards was mostly vegetarian, Hitler did have a fart problem & his Dr. Theo Morell gave him many useless shots & drugs. Hitler did sign laws with regard to animal welfare & endangered species which were advanced for it's time.

Wow, thanks to AB this is turning into a giant game of "Whack-a-Nazi". Let's begin with your claim about rape of Czech, Polish, and Russian women. First off, you are still ignoring the sex-slave trafficking I see. Second, WHY OH WHY should I not take these claims at face value, but I should take EVERY claim from German women at face value? Do you have a good reason for that? And by the way, the Czech episode I referred to came from a German officer who witnessed the activity, from Blood, Tears, and Folly by Len Deighton.

"You say you oppose collective guilt, yet you're only applying it the Germans because of what the Nazis did, when the same collective guilt can be applied to the Jews for what Stalin's Jewish henchmen did & if 1 looks @ who Stalin's henchmen were, a disproportionate # of them were Jewish."

Ok I had to quote this paragraph because it is so idiotic. No, collective guilt cannot be applied to Jews because Lazar Kaganovich, who through most of his career was simply the commissar for heavy industry, happened to be Jewish by descent. Neither because of Yagoda. These men, unlike the Nazis who claimed to act in the name and interest of Germany, did not act in the name of Jews. Many of them did not even consider themselves to be Jewish. Second, I am pretty damn knowledgeable about the Soviet Union under Stalin, so you're going to have to help me out regarding this organization called "Stalin's henchmen", because I've never heard of it.

If you keep pressing this old idiotic canard, I can easily point out the large number of Jews within the Third Reich military, some of them having achieved high ranks. To suggest that the Jewish Holocaust was retatliation for crimes that a handful of Jews in the USSR allegedly shared responsiblity for is idiotic beyond words- and more importantly, none of those alleged crimes were done to Germany, so it is a moot point.

You say there is no excuse for bombing civilians. In that case, it was a bad idea for the Germans to start doing that huh? Maybe they should have made sure that they could defend against such strategic bombing first.

Next let's deal with your moronic comments about Soviet gas vans. Joachim Hoffmann needs to provide PROOF of his claims, ditto Suvorov. I know more about Suvorov than you do, and unlike you, I can actually read his work if I ever feel I need to induce vomiting. I reject Suvorov, not because I disagree with his claims, but because his claims are unsubstantiated, plucked from his ass, and are often in conflict with basic military strategy. I have already point out how Erhard Rauss, in Russian Combat Tactics of WWII seems to know absolutely nothing about Suvorov's little theory about defensive and offensive war. Suvorov routinely makes massive errors, such as claiming the USSR had twice as many paratroopers as they actually did, and he likes to make otherwise mediocre weapons seem like superweapons for the purpose of supporting his bizarre theory that if the Soviet Union had high-quality weapons, it must mean they were planning to conquer Europe.

A sampling of Suvorov's idiocy can be found in his article: http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/208/108/lang,en/

Suvorov's claims in this article are simply too nonsensical to take him seriously as a historian. But he has many, many more. In fact there is actually a series of Anti-Suvorov books in Russian, because his works are readily avaialable inside Russia.

So no, Joachim Hoffman's claims are most likely bullshit, and he relies heavily on Suvorov, which pushes the bullshit content to dangerous levels. And if "many historians" now support Suvorov's view, maybe you can cite some of them, because I can tell you which historians don't:

David M. Glantz(if you weren't a complete dilettante, you would know the significance of this name)
Geoffery Roberts
Anthony Beevor
pretty much any credible historian on the subject...

Personally I would love to repeat Suvorov's ideas about military strategy to any general some day, just to watch the confused look on his face, and to hear questions like: "Wait, you mean there's a guy who actually published that?"

But honestly, the most hilarious thing you have written here is your demand of a "neutral" treatment of Hitler. Yes, let's ignore starting a war that killed over 50 million people and destroyed entire nations- because the fucker put the eagle on the protected list and was a vegetarian.

Please tell me that was a joke.

AGain Aslan, as far as the terror bombing, I'm against all of it, yet you imply that I somehow support it, when I wrote I oppose all of it.

You ignore that many of the Czech, Polish, Russian & Jewess women consented to have sex with the German soldiers & then use profanity. It's NOT rape if the woman consented. You also ignore that even today, prostitution is rampant in Czech Republic, Russia & Poland. Have you ever considered the fact that these women wanted to have sex with the German soldiers? Your many rape claims can be debunked by the fact that many of the women you say were raped in fact consented to have sex & even today many porn actresses are Jewess & Polish.

You bash Suvorov, & yes, there are historians hostile to Viktor Suvorov's findings, but there are some who have changed their views & many more have moderated their position to some who even agree with him.

As to Stalin's Jewish henchmen, no they didn't do it for religion & they didn't do it on the basis of being Jewish, but that's of minor importance. When it comes to the bottom line, Stalin's disproportionately Jewish henchmen sent millions of Gentiles to their deaths.

Why else did Nazi Germany's policy towards the Jews shift from an emigration policy to 1 of execution? Because during Operation Barbarossa, it was learned of Soviet atrocities & the fact that disproportionate #s of perpetrators were Jewish. The thinking of Einsatzgruppen who shot Jewish men, women & kids in the ditches often was that it's war & because Stalin's Jewish henchmen shot, tortured & starved to death millions of Gentiles in the USSR, that they could do the same.

You may dislike it, but it's just a fact that Stalin's Jewish henchmen committed Stalin's Communist Holocaust & the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews was an indirect retaliatory strike. The Nazis thinking during the Wansee Conference was that if the Jewish Communists could starve & kill of millions of Gentiles, then the Nazis would do the same thing in retaliation.

BTW Aslan, this poster supports the US in defeating Nazi Germany & Imperial Japan during WW2, but opposes the terror bombing done by both the Allies & the Axis, yet you lecture me on what I didn't write, when I wrote I opposed it all.

With Viktor Suvorov, it has been noted that he worked in Soviet Military intelligence, so his conclusions carry weight. Joachim Hoffman's book Stalin's War of Extermination is the only revisionist book I've read on WW2. I've read 2 books on Hitler by Ian Kershaw titled Hubris & Nemesis. Also read Dachau from Dachau Museum.

Aslan, you just can't tolerate the fact that many Russian, Polish & Jewess women just consented to have sex with German soldiers & keep calling it rape. Yes, rapes did happen, but how many of the women you say were raped, in fact willfully had sex with the German soldiers?

Der Spiegel publishes an article on rape during WW II. A new movie came out on the subject.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,585779,00.html

I see Petard isn't done yet. Yeah Peter, we know that Germany wanted Danzig. But then why did they then proceed to attack Poland, conquering Polish land, and then declaring the entire state of Poland non-existent? There was no reason to do so.

And no Anirb, Suvorov's claims don't carry weight, because they cannot be verified outside of Suvorov's own world. Being involved in military intelligence does not mean that one's claims are automatically true. I was involved in the army signal corps. That does not mean if I say that the US army fries civilians using radio frequency, my claim has merit or weight.

The irony is that both of you guys would have been eliminated in the German T4 program, tasked with wiping out the feeble minded.

Aslan, yes German women voluntarily had sex with American, British & French soldiers. Similarly don't doubt that in some cases German women had Russian boyfriends. HOWEVER, when Red Army soldiers kill the woman they have sex with, it's most likely rape & when a Russian soldier has sex with a 10 year old German girl, it's rape as a 10 year old girl can't consent.

With regard to the German military brothels-again if the Polish, Czech, Russian & Jewess women voluntarily went, then it's consent, not rape. This poster has been to rape trials. If a Polish or Jewess women were to accuse a man of rape & the latter 2 men claim consent, it's for juries to decide which story is credible. As to T4 program, in some nations they do euthanize babies who have deformities. Maybe Aslan Maskhadov would've been euthanized! They already abort babies with deformities.

But Aslan seriously, you are insecure in your own conclusions. Mikhail Meltiukhov is a Russian historian who I found on the Internet who agrees with Viktor Suvorov's conclusion as does the late Aleksandr Solzehnitsyn, who as I understand the latter was a respected Russian historian.

Viktor Suvorov is intelligent so for you to suggest that he is retarded is a cheap shot. He did intelligence work in the Russian Army & has the qualifications to study military maneuvers. You can't debunk the declassified documents. It's a fact that EVENTUALLY Stalin's USSR would've attacked France & other European nations & would have attacked Asia as well to spread Communism.

Yes, other groups were also involved with Stalin's Holodomor & don't deny that Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians (who Stalin was) were involved. It could also be said that besides the Germans, the Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians & others collaborated with the German Nazis in committing the Holocaust, but the Holocaust is not thought of as Ukrainian, it's thought of as German as the leaders were German.

With the USSR, in the Ukraine, 1/3 of the members of the Cheka execution squads were Jewish. Karl Marx the father of Communism was Jewish. Yes, Hitler in Mein Kampf repeatedly attacked Jews & blamed them for everything, however as noted, it wasn't until a little after Operation Barbarossa that it shifted to execution policy.

What was meant was that Jews as a group when compared to others % wise had more than their share of Stalin's henchmen. It would be no different than saying that Jews are overrepresented as lawyers in the U.S. Yes, most American lawyers are non-Jewish, just as most of Stalin's henchmen were non-Jewish, HOWEVER just as Jews as a group have more than their share of American lawyers (this poster once wanted to be a lawyer)the Jews also have more than their share of Stalin's henchmen. Similarly it could be said that Indians are disproportionately represented as software engineers in the U.S., though again, most software engineers are not Indian.

Besides Lazar Kaganovich & Genrikh Yagoda, there's Lev Mekhlis (already mentioned), Raikhman (SPL?) & many more to list which incl. Karl Marx, the Commie founder. The fact that they didn't do it in the name of Judaism is not the important point because what remains is that the politics of Communism of which they were involved with lead to the death of millions of Gentiles who did no harm to them but had different politics.

With the Final Solution, the Nazis certainly used atrocities committed by Stalin's Jewish henchmen as an excuse to do this & what they found in Stalin's USSR reinforced what was written in Mein Kampf. Aslan (the name insults Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia) can accuse me & other posters who point out Stalin's Jewish Cheka execution squads as anti-Semitic, but again, saying that Jews were disproportionately involved in Stalin's Holodomor when compared to other ethnic groups is no different than saying that Jews are overrepresented as American lawyers, eventhough most players aren't Jewish.

Anirb, I hope one day you will realize the futility of arguing topics you clearly know little about.

I have never heard of German military brothels. Thats another American/Aslan lie. Every army has some rapists. But the German army's crimes regarding rape were nothing compared to the the Russians. There is no comparison. Aslan, you've been visiting the holocaust museum too much, you pig.

Aslan is a stupid bigot. Der Spiegel published an article last year on rape during WW II. Read it stupid, you will learn something. 2 million German women were raped, many gang raped.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,585779,00.html

Although the Americans only fought about 1/100 as much as the Germans and Russian, they were known for being more interested in girls than fighting. The Americans were rapists. Immediately when they landed at Normandy the raped French women. As usual, what the Americans and British did to the German's is completely ignored. Being your enemy, you raped far more Germans than French.

When you shot all those Vietnamese families in pits. Thats nothing compared to what you did to Germans you lying filth.

Aslan is typical of so many ignorant and bigoted Americans. He wasn't there, its not his history, but he claims to know everything about WW II.

Aslan, where is the memorial to all the blacks you murdered over 300 years and the genocide you committed against the American Indian. You stupid hypocrite. You build holocaust museums in every state, but there's nothing for all the african-Americans and native-Americans you murdered. If the Germans were the hypocrites Americans are, they would build a memorial for the blacks and Indians that America murdered.

How many women are you claiming the Germans raped and where is the evidence? Present some evidence that states how many women you claim the Germans raped. Do you know what evidence is asshole?

I typed in "american brothels ww II" on google and got 61,000 hits.

One article (The Seattle Times) said "Tens of thousands of women were employed to provide cheap sex to U.S. troops until spring 1946, when Gen. Douglas MacArthur shut the brothels down".

I typed in "German brothels WW II" on google and according to wikipedia "It is estimated that a minimum of 34,140 women from occupied states were forced to work as prostitutes during the Third Reich".

has the feathered bastard always
claimed that the earth is flat?

what is it with the feathered twit?

the twit verbage is fun for purposes
of deconstruction, though.

Its interesting what Americans and American Jews say about Germany. While rape is not normally associated with the German army, you are saying they raped. I remember reading or watching on television a Jewish American saying the Germans were forbidden from having sex (this includes rape) with Slavs or jews because they considered them racially inferior. In the context of the book or TV show this showed how awful the Germans were.

So the condemnation appears to go both ways, they are racist and evil for not having sex with slavs or jews, or they are evil for being rapists. I think the Americans and Jews are getting caught up in their own web of lies.

But enough about the Germans. Lets talk about the American brothels. That was in "The Seattle Times". What do you think about that? Tens of thousands of women forced to have sex with American soldiers. Do you think there is a fault in the American character that they would do something like that?

Wipe away the tears Peter, and calm down. First off, yes, I'm very sorry, but books do contain evidence, and I have cited several, the authors of which cite their own primary sources.

Apparenlty you have a paranoid belief that the world is anti-German. The belief is so strong that you selectively decide what on the internet is true and what isn't.

This is an article about a Holocaust denier. Not the Vietnam war, not the genocide against Native Americans, not the destruction of Korea. Holocaust, got it? It is not "anti-German", nor is it bigotry, to point out things such as that NAZI Germany was responsible for the Holocaust, and NAZI Germany started the Second World War. It is not "anti-German bigotry" and more than it is "anti-Iranian" to point out that Persia once tried to conquer the Greek city states, or it is anti-Russian to point out that yes, indeed, Soviet soldiers did commit rape on a large scale, though it was a minority out of a large amount of soldiers.

Cry, bitch and moan, but you yourself found that Germans did in fact engage in sex slavery; your own source puts the MINIMUM at over 30,000. And you can continue to cry but the Dresden death toll is no greater than 50,000, and more likely around 25,000. You can continue to piss and moan about the majority of historians who support that view, to which I already alluded. Ah..the Vast anti-German conspiracy.

Once again, Petard, issues like sex trafficking in modern day America, and other countries, is a serious issue to me. However, we are not talking about that, we are talking about the Holocaust. As such we are also not talking about Dresden technically, any more than a discussion about the Holocaust should be sidetracked onto say, the battle of Kurk or Operation Bagration, unless there is something relevant. More importantly, when discussing the issue of modern day sex trafficking, I do not act as if the ethnicity of the clientele, the pimps, or the traffickers is somehow reflects on their whole ethnic group. So for example, if I point out that a large portion of the clientele of the sex slaves near the Czech-German border are German businessmen, it doesn't mean that I believe that Germans have some kind of genetic predisposition to using prostitution. Prostitution and sex slavery are a huge business throughout the world, ethnicity has little to do with the makeup of the clientele.

It seems to me, Petard, that you interpret historical facts you don't like as some kind of conspiracy against Germans. There have in the past been some Jewish authors, many of whom are criticized and viewed as fanatics by mainstream Holocaust researchers, who try to insist that the Holocaust was linked to the German people as a whole. Their view is nonsense however, the Nazi leadership HID what they were doing from the German people. They knew that even after all their propaganda, the German people would most likely not accept what the government was doing on the Eastern front. Germans that knew tried to rebel. The German people expressed outrage at the T4 euthanasia programme. If the Germans were truly monsters, than the Nazis wouldn't have had to hide all this from view.

One Jewish author who tried to find out how the Nazis could do such things came back with this impression, a lesson for us all:

"Now I see a little better how Nazism overcame Germany. It was what most Germans wanted - or, under pressure of combined reality and illusion, came to want. They wanted it; they got it; and they liked it. I came back home a little afraid for my country, afraid of what it might want, and get, and like, under pressure of combined reality and illusions. I felt - and feel - that it was not German Man that I had met, but Man. He happened to be in Germany under certain conditions. He might be here, under certain conditions. He might, under certain conditions, be I." -Milton Mayer

Does that look like "anti-German bigotry"? On the contrary, it is an observation that all of us have the same impulses which, if exploited, can lead us to do terrible things if not checked. Conspiracism, the belief that one is the victim of some global conspiracy, is such an impulse, and you have it.

You see Petard, you bring up American atrocities and other crimes only to defend your beloved Nazi Germany. You don't actually care about those other historical crimes, you don't actually try to do anything about women trafficking or imperialist war. Maybe you should start some day.

Bottom line is however, that none of that changes the fact that Nazi Germany started WWII, and is thus largely responsible for what took place subsequently. This is not "anti-German", this is simply a fact.

Pal Joey: That's right, keep on talking/writing, you're just digging a deeper hole for yourselves. The more you come out into the open, the less credibility you're going to have. You have every right to make an ass of yourself, welcome to America. I see you and your pal Peter are using this right to-the-hilt.

Wow Mike, you really ought to get into comedy writing. Apparently you believe that by bundling a mass of bizarre and wild claims together, requiring us to give you the credibility to decide what is believable evidence and what isn't, you lend yourself some kind of credibility. It does not.

You accused me of lying. Nothing I have written here is a lie. Cry, bitch, moan, and accuse the Jews of a conspiracy, but it doesn't change the fact that your claims are outlandish, and mine are supported by documentary evidence.

By the way, given your incoherent writing style, it is no surprise that Noam Chomsky didn't accept your "challenge". It is not required of intellectuals to respond to every argument, particularly ones of low quality such as yours. Refusal to credit bad arguments is does not automatically give them merit. This is what the term "frivolous" is used for in the legal sphere. It means you make an argument so ludicrous that it doesn't deserve to be dignified with response, and that certainly characterizes what you have written here. So you can continue stroking your little cock, imagining that everyone is afraid to debate you, but the truth is you are an obvious nut and you can't construct a coherent argument without requiring the listener to assume the existence of a conspiracy.

Since Chomsky won't answer you, I will spell it out for you. The massive death tolls attributed to Communism are based on attributing things like starvation directly to the Communist ideology. In other words, if they implemented collectivization, and if during that time there was a famine, it is counted as though "the Communists" killed those people. Moreover, as I have stated before, population projections are often used in a rather dishonest way.

Now if we are to accept that economic policies of "Communist" states are responsible for people starving and such, then it is every bit as logical to make the same assumptions about life under capitalist systems and lo and behold, capitalism as a system has existed far longer, technically from the end of the 16th century, but realistically from the turn of the 18th-19th century.

The beauty of it all is that the more lax the retards such as yourself get in your criteria for judging deaths attributable to Communism, the greater the far higher death toll of capitalism becomes, simply because the same logic can be applied to capitalism.

Of course I know you wish that weren't so. It seems that Anirb, Petard, and yourself are masters of special pleading. That is the logical fallacy of insisting that different rules be applied to your claims and evidence.

Please, continue to make asses of yourselves, it is amusing to me.

You are practising what the shrinks call projection. You have presented no refutation, no new arguments, no references
and have resorted to what Edward Said labeled the lowest form of humor, sarcasm.
You are reduced to namecalling and ad hominem attacks. By the way, I corresponded with Chomsky off and on for 22 years and he admitted in an email that he could not source his claim of "500 million victims of
capitalism." So contrary to your lie he did respond that he couldn't document it. He lamely wrote that he had heard there was a
Black Book Of Capitalism to be published in
Germany, hopefully more accurate than the Communist Black Book On Nazism published by
Willie Munzer, see Jim Martin's two volume
work referenced above. At least Noam was honest enough to admit that he was wrong.
Yes, the Communist created deaths were caused by Communist ideology in both China
and the USSR. I have given refs here, try
to read them and refute them. My writing is
quite good which is why I have been published in The Washington Post, The Progressive, The East Bay Express, the old Communist Guardian (NY) and the Anderson Valley Advertiser, Alex Cockburn's favorite
paper. Where have you been published outside of public restrooms ?
You provide no documentary evidence whatsoever, repeat your Soviet nonsense
about Jewish Conspiracies, which I never
mentioned nor believe in.
I have strictly used the universal rules of
basic Aristotelian logic.
Again, read the revisionist works and try to refute them as regards the bogus six million, gas chambers, systematic extermination conspiracy, the Frank "diary,
the four million Jews killed at Auschwitz,"
the final figure may less than 100,000,
the lampshades of human skin, etc.
The people who created the original Soviet Gulag invented the "holocaust."
I will graciously accept your intellectual surrender on all points as you have admitted that you totally unable to refute them.
Thank you, Aslan.

Mike I am not an admirer of Chomsky but given your incoherent, conspiratorial writing style I find it hard to believe you had a correspondance together. For one thing, you made a claim that Communism killed 200 million people, which is twice the number claimed in the hilarious comedy book known as The Black Book of Communism. I find it surprising that you found an angle those authors didn't.

Furthermore, you neglected the fact that I know more about Soviet history than you, and in case you hadn't heard, the Soviet secret archives have been open for almost 20 years, with no evidence of a man-made famine being revealed.

I think that in this entire exchange with you and your fellow retards, I have presented more than enough checkable sources, which the gallery may find easily at their library or Borders bookstores, if not online. I have also provided links to websites that directly address Holocaust revisionist claims.

Your ideology however, requires the audience to accept certain conspiracy theories, mainly related to Jews, and also a double standard in evidence, along with many, many red herrings. In fact this bitching about Communism is, if you pardon the pun, one big red herring. The crimes of one group, real or imagined, do not detract from the reality of another.

But if you insist on making an ass out of yourself, please continue. Perhaps Edward Said had a negative view of sarcasm because he was a socially inept aspie much like you, who could not comprehend sarcasm and innuendo. While you're at it, you may start with explaining why deaths during famine under Communism are "directly related to the Communist ideology" whereas deaths due to economic policy and conditions under capitalism are not. Such a glaring double standard needs explanation. But then again, when you self-identify yourself as an objectivist-libertarian, you basically remove all doubt that you are intelligent or sane.

On another note Aslan, Nazi Germany had from 1933 until Jan. 1942 tried to get Jews to emigrate among other places Palestine. Adolf Eichmann met with Zionist leaders during the 1930s to work this out. As you know, the Nazis initially wanted the Jews to go to Africa such as Madagascar & actively pursued this until they switched to execution policy following the Lake Wannsee Conf. in Jan. 1942.

Hitler did sometimes intervene in decisions as it related to the Jews. There were instances during the Holocaust where he sent Jewish children to Palestine, thus in contradiction of the extermination policy. He certainly wanted to get rid of the Jews, but up until 1942, he wanted them to emigrate, not be executed. What the motives were to change from emigration to execution policy? Yes, Hitler did discuss Jewish Bolshevik atrocities way before he came to power, but learning about Soviet atrocities during Operation Barbarossa reinforced already existing thinking.

The Holocaust in my view is not much different from many other war atrocities that have happened throughout history. Yes, it's bad that Jewish men, women & children were killed whether it's being shot in ditches, starving & working to death, being hit over the head by bats or clubs & in some cases gassings & pseudo-scientific experiments. There's no excuse to execute an entire religion or ethnicity of people.

However, as has been repeated, Jews have their own share of henchmen who sent millions to their deaths in the USSR. What was meant by "indirect" retaliation is that no, the Germans were not 1st killed by the Jews-except for Volga Germans who were starved & worked to death during the Soviet Famine or Holodomor.

What was meant by "indirect" retaliation is Karma or poetic retaliation. Jewish men send millions of Gentiles to their deaths in the USSR, Nazi men send millions of Jews to their death during the Holocaust. As the Nazis killed more Russians than they did Jews & considering that mostly Russian henchmen committed Stalin's biggest Holocaust, it could be said that Nazi Germans killing Russians & raping Russian women was "indirect" retaliation-Russian men & women send millions of Soviet citizens to their deaths in the USSR with the Russian men raping Soviet women, Nazi German men send millions of Russian men to their deaths & Nazi German men in SOME cases raped Russian women, though in many cases, the Russian women voluntarily had sex with the Nazi German men, esp. if the Russian women were blonde haired & blue eyed.

Since you discuss rape, more Russian men have raped 10 year old Russian girls than German men have raped 10 year old Russian girls. A 10 year old Russian or Polish girl has a greater chance of getting raped by another Russian or Polish man. Jewish men have also raped 10 year old Polish girls. There are Jewish men in prison for raping 10 year old girls. Do you deny that Jewish men rape 10 year old girls, because Stalin's Jewish & Russian henchmen got pleasure from raping 10 year old girls during Stalin's Red Terror. .

One typo above in point number six above, "daid" is obviously meant to be "said."
I am not going to repeat my points again,
there are limits to indulging the willfully
blind.
Asked and Answered as the trial attorneys
say when a fellow shyster tries to bring up
the same points that one has repeatedly addressed.
To the intellectually honest here check out
my refs.

Thanks for the You Tube ref. One thing I should elaborate on further is the straw man
nonargument of conspiracy that certain Soviet retards keep bringing up. I never used the term and many evil things like AIPAC are so out in the open that conspiracy
makes no sense. But in US law conspiracy is used all the time to prosecute people. So if the state can charge you with onspiracy, why can't you charge them with same ? There's conspiracy theory and there's conspiracy fact. The robotic, kneejerk response of your typical idiot NPR listener doesn't cut it here. For instance there was a conspiracy in the LBJ Administration to cover up the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty. See the James Ennes and Jim Taylor books. Just as one example.

Anirb, I've had a change of heart, after witnessing the massive dishonesty of Mike, who thought he could get away with citing books he apparently never read, you're not looking so bad right now in terms of debating skill.

So let me simplify things real quick.

1. Explain the existence of this organization called "Stalin's henchmen". In order to determine the overrepresentation of Jews, among other demographics in this organization, I will need to know which organization you are referring to, and thus far I have not found it. I am aware of the ChK, MGB, OGPU, NKVD, etc., but no "Stalin's Henchmen."

2. Please explain why Jews should bare the main guilt for the crimes of the Soviet state, seeing that they were a tiny minority in the state apparatus, they were not the only overrepresented group, and they were not the highest overrepresented group either.

Aslan, you keep ignoring the fact that all of your (few) sources have been refuted.
Now I have read all the books I have referenced and have read many on the other
side, actually currently rereading Roosevelt
and Hopkins by the New Deal liar Robert Sherwood.
As far as the burden resting on the claimant you totally ignore that principle
in relation to the "holocaust."
I agree the burden of proof does rest on the positive assertion and that is why I have given refs to support my positive assertions on the Communists as well as
my negative views on the "holocaust"
claimants. Your habit of just giving pro-
Soviet sources to minimize the tens of millions of Stalin's victims in the Ukraine
and elsewhere is not convincing nor a proper
response.
You have not shown one lie that I have made
nor are your Communist "sources" on the mass
murder of the Sudenten Germans in "Czechoslovakia" (a rump state like the USSR and Yugoslavia and like them, now no longer)at all convincing. No one believed
you or your invented "source" but in my case all the sources exist and people can check them out. Nor is your source reliable
as regards the Nazis in Prague.
You think if you give a "source" that clinches the argument ! It doesn't because all your Communist "sources" are thoroughly contradicted by other factual sources.
I'm sorry if other posters here have been too dim witted to catch on to your tricks.
As far as Jews go,they were a very substantial part of the Bolshevik Revolution
and totally ran all the pre-KGB terror operations until well after WW2. Kevin MacDonald of Cal State, Long Beach, has done
massive research here. Look up The Occidental Quarterly online or check him out
at uclb.edu.
Conquest wrote that most of the then 20 million deaths were due to the Ukraine genocide. He in fact has now come to the conclusion that many more than than 20 million people were killed by Stalin.
He never "admitted" that this horrendous
mass murder was anything but the result of
Communist policies.
You now concede at least 11 million deaths which you denied before.
I read the Mao book twice and the authors have conceded that their figure of three million killed in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution was greatly understated.
Your comeback that some reviewers claim "only" 50 million were killed by Mao is not too impressive to say the least !
Talk about making an ass of yourself !
I read where Solzhenitsyn said a few decades
back that he thought 100 million people had been killed under Soviet Communism. I didn't
cite his Gulag as that reference, he wrote and spoke in plenty of other venues. I did read all three volumes of the Gulag. One in
retrospect was probably enough. But I was
younger then and had a higher masochism quotient.
I never alleged conspiracy but only acknowledged the pervasiness of a ruling
ideology. Most people are sheeple and go
along with whatever is current. The victors
write the "histories" which bear little relation to objective reality. See Jeff Riggenbach's Why American History Is Not What They Say: An Introduction To Revisionism. Amazon sells it.
Finally your pathetic attempts to cite the ongoing Soviet censorship and archive cherry picking under Comrade Putin as some
kind of "history" unmasks as the Soviet agent/apologist you have always been.
For at least ten years they have been engaged in a massive attempt to doctor the
record and now they are resorting to their
original Stalinist "holocaust denial" tactics to outlaw the truth.
Conspiracy here is quite real as regards the
Soviet State under Putin. In the West it is
more shameful sheeple conformity.
Frankly I think you a coward hiding behind a phony name, unless you do not live in the USA.
I didn't think it possible for my opinion of you to go lower but it has now !
You haven't had one factually correct argument, your use of Soviet sources and your resorts to argumentum ad hominem mark you as a debit to the Communist cause.
You just got your ass whipped in public again ! Give it up, little Soviet Mon.

Aslan, since you're Chechen (looked up on the Internet & Maskhadov is a Chechen name), you're aware that Stalin sent many Chechens to their deaths. Since Chechnya has a large Muslim population & you know the problems that nation has today, if the Nazis had made it to Chechnya, there's no doubt that many Chechens would've gone into the Wehrmacht. Muslims often want their own nations.

Why should you as a Chechen really care whether the Russian, Polish & Czech women were raped or voluntarily engaged in sex with German soldiers? Russians & Chechens have been killing eachother for so long, so it's odd to read a Chechen such as yourself expressing empathy for them.

If you're a Chechen Muslim, then why should you care about the Jewish men, women & children killed during the Holocaust ? You know that Muslims & Jews hate eachother & though Arabs (Chechens aren't Arabs but sympathize with them) & Jews are cousins-both Semites, the Jews & Arabs hate eachother the same way that the Chinese & Japanese do.

As to your ? about Stalin's Jewish henchmen, well there's the KGB predecessor, Red Army officers & of course Lazar Kaganovich. The main reason as repeated as to why it's justified to focus on the Jews who perpetrated Stalin's Red Terror is because if the Simon Wiesenthal Center is going to talk about how evil Gentiles such as Germans are for sending millions of Jewish men, women & children to their deaths (though as written the Nazis killed way more Gentiles), then it's justified to talk about the evil things that have been done by Jews against Gentiles & well, Stalin's Holocaust is the perfect eg.

The # of people who were killed during the Soviet Famine whether it's 20 million or 60 million as Aleksander Solzenitysn claims is not what is important. #s are not the issue. The main point is that large #s of innocents lost their lives. The same thing with what the official # of Jewish deaths are. I don't care if it's the official 6 million or lower such as 5 million or even 4 million-the # is not what's important. It's again, the fact that innocents were killed.

Yes, it's bad to have sent millions of Jews to their deaths during the Holocaust. Nazi soldiers killed Jewish babies by smashing their skulls. This poster doesn't dispute the evil done here. The point here as will be repeated again, is that the Simon Wiesenthal Center has made a religion of the Holocaust & they go on about how evil Gentiles are when the Jews just as the Germans, have their share of men who've committed crimes against humanity.

The Jews like the Germans have done great things for science as Albert Einstein was a great physicist. Ferdinand Porsche was a great engineer. Steven Spielberg is 1 of the best movie directors. It's not my intent to generalize about all Jews because of what some did during Stalin's Red Terror, just as I don't generalize about all Germans & Japanese based on what the Nazis & Imperialists did to Europe & Asia during WW2.

But again, as long as the Simon Wiesenthal Center is going to talk about how evil the German Gentiles are for Nazism & killing millions of Jews, Gentiles have a duty to counter it by talking about the evils done by Lazar Kaganovich, Genrikh Yagoda, Lev Mekhlis, Chernakhovski, Abumakov, Raikhmann, Sinoviev (SPL?, which incl. Julius & Ethel Rosenberg, I have now given you the names of 9 Jewish Communists-7 of them who were Stalin's henchmen & the latter 2 a husband & wife time who gave secrets on how to build atomic weapons to again-Stalin's USSR. There you have 8 Jewish men & 1 Jewess women who either helped in committing Stalin's crimes against humanity or gave Stalin's USSR the secrets to build atomic weapons-hence many Jews were involved & you can add many more to the 9 names mentioned here.

Finally, if you want to know the history books I've read they are: the 2 books on Hitler by Ian Kershaw Hubris & Nemesis, Stalin's War of Extermination, Dachau from Dachau Museum, Rape of Nanking & the Chinese in America a Narrative History by the late Iris Chang, the Korean War by DJ Goldstein, Vietnam a Narrative History by Stanley J. Karnow, Germany's last mission to Japan, the Failed Voyage of U234, the Medical
Casebook of Adolf Hitler, the 1st World War by Trevor Wilson & Robin Prior. Also I've seen many History Channel programs. You can't say that I don't educate myself. Your thoughts again welcome.

Mike, for you the war is over. I already busted you for misquoting sources, referring to books you never read, and now you continue to lie, claiming that I acknowledge certain death tolls when in fact I was just correcting you. Personally I don't know how you handle the cognative dissonance that goes with such bald-faced lies, especially when all ANYONE has to do is use the scroll bar, look up, and see the mistakes and dishonest comments you made. They don't need to go to a link, they just need to read THIS very exchange.

You fucked up, and it's over for you. And no, you don't show a "basic familiarity" with this stuff because you can't even get your claims straight, you are completely unaware of any studies other than Conquest and Solzhenitsyn(whose claims you misrepresented, not to mention the fact that he was in no position to make any claims), and you mix up things like the famine of 1931-32 and the Great Purge. You also clearly demonstrate that you know absolutely dick about the population of the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR during that time. If you did, you would immediately realize how absurd your claims are.

You seem to be very confused about this concept of "refuting" something. Refuting something means YOU make a coherent argument and then cite sources to back it up. It helps when you: A. HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE SOURCE YOU CITED. and B. CAN SUCCESSFULLY PUT FORTH ITS ARGUMENT. You have clearly done neither here, and it is apparent.

Moreover in some cases you refer to the IHR, and say it "refuted" such and such. Well if it truly refuted said claims, then why hasn't the historical community supported their evidence. There are two possible explanations:

1. There is a massive conspiracy to hide the facts of WWII, so massive that even ex German generals fabricated entire campaign histories, complete with maps, to create a false story. This is what I mean when I say conspiracy theory, whether you want to call it "prevailing thought" or whatever.

2. The IHR and similar organizations cannot get their claims past peer review, and as such are rightfully sidelined as a marginal group of closet Nazi sympathizers.

Hmmm....I wonder which one it is.

Mike, I'm done with you. If you continue to post here, I will just refer others to scroll to the relevant posts where you lie about what your sources claim, how you got the title of one of your sources wrong, and other obvious mistakes.

1) To sum it all up, I have given all the refs such as Butz, Rassinier, Faurisson, Graf, Mattogno, Sanning, Verrall, Burg and especially Germar Rudolph for readers to check out. None of them have been refuted.
Van Pelt made the only honest attempt to and he was refuted by Rudolph.Also see
Debunking The Holocaust by Thomas Dalton, Ph.D, available from Amazon.

2) On sole Allied responsibility for WW2,
I have given Tansill, Taylor, Hoggan, Barnes,Beard, Sargent and especially Neilson
as refs. WW1 was a case of divided responsibility. See Millis, Tansill, Fay,
Turner and Barnes. Turner is John Kenneth Turner. Also see The New Dealers War by Thomas Fleming.

3) I have given refs for the 150-200 million victims of Communism. See Chang
and Halliday on Mao. Just for starters see
Solzhenitsyn and Conquest on the Soviets.
There are many others just documenting the
Soviet mass murders. See The Black Book
Of Communism, their 100 million figure is way too low but it is a great book.

4) My opponents have been reduced to total
namecalling all the time, to ad hominems
and to actually misrepresenting what I wrote. They have now conceded the enormous Communist death toll in China and the USSR
alone.

5) Unless any new arguments are presented
everything here has been Asked and Answered.

If your not tired of arguing with a biased liar who ignores direct evidence, continue to post Mike. But you can argue with an imbecile forever, he is incapable of understanding the simplest things.

... Amongst themselves, the Jews are quite candid about their sympathy for and involvement in Bolshevism. On 4 April 1919 the Jewish Chronicle: “There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so many Jews are Bolshevists, in the fact that the ideals of Bolshevism at many points are consonant with the finest ideals of Judaism.”

Probably the best-known exposé of the Jewish role in the Bolshevik coup d’état was by Sir Winston Churchill, writing in the Illustrated Sunday Herald of 8 February 1920. Churchill wrote “With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of leading figures are Jews. Moreover the principal inspiration and the driving power comes from Jewish leaders.”

Communism was of course founded by Karl Marx whose grandfather was a rabbi by the name of Mordeccai. Marx was given his initial encouragement by a Communist-Zionist by the name of Moses Hess. As founder and editor of the Rheinische Zeitung, the main organ of leftist thought in Germany, he provided Karl Marx with his first important platform. Later, in Brussels, he collaborated with Marx on The German Ideology. It was Hess too who converted to Communism Friedrich Engels, the wealthy textiles magnate who later subsidised Marx from the profits of sweated labour in Britain and Germany.

When the Bolsheviks overthrew the short-lived democratic government in Moscow and St. Petersburg in October 1917, it was a virtual Jewish coup d’état. The most prominent Jewish Commissar was Trotsky, real name Bronstein. He had been married by a rabbi in 1900, and whilst in exile in New York he had worked for Novy Mir, described in the Church Times (23 January 1925) as a “Yiddish newspaper.”

The various reporters and diplomats who were there at the time of the “Revolution” have given evidence as to its Jewish nature.

The widow of the Guardian’s correspondent Mrs. Ariadna Tyrkova-Williams wrote: “In the Soviet Republic all the committees and commissaries were filled with Jews.”

The most detailed description of Jewish influence in the Bolshevik ‘revolution comes from Robert Wilton, the Russian correspondent of The Times. In 1920 he published a book in French, Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs, which gave the racial background of all the members of the Soviet government. (This does not appear in the later English translation, for some odd reason.) After the publication of this monumental work, Wilton was ostracised by the press, and he died in poverty in 1925. He reported that the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was made up as follows:

NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Jew
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian

“The Council of the People’s Commissars comprises the following:

MINISTRY NAME NATIONALITY
President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Jew
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew

“The following is the list of members of the Central Executive Committee:

NAME NATIONALITY
Sverdlov (president) Jew
Avanessof (sec.) Armenian
Bruno Lett
Babtchinski Jew
Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzburg Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
Dimanstein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
Joffe Jew
Karkline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Krylenko Russian
KrassikofSachs Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Lett
Ulyanov (lenin) Jew
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lounatcharski Russian
Peterson Lett
Peters Lett
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka Lett
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Sosnovski Jew
Skrytnik Jew
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Teodorovitch Jew
Terian Armenian
Ouritski Jew
Telechkine Russian
Feldmann Jew
Froumkine Jew
Souriupa Ukranian
Tchavtchevadze Georgian
Scheikmann Jew
Rosental Jew
Achkinazi Imeretian
Karakhane (Karaim) Jew
Rose Jew
Sobelson (Radek) Jew
Sclichter Jew
Schikolini Jew
Chklianski Jew
Levine (Pravdine) Jew

“The following is the list of members of the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow:

NAME NATIONALITY
Dzerjinski (president) Pole
Peters (vice-president) Lett
Chklovski Jew
Kheifiss Jew
Zeistine Jew
Razmirovitch Jew
Kronberg Jew
Khaikina Jewess
Karlson Lett
Schaumann Jew
Leontovitch Jew
Jacob Goldine Jew
Glaperstein Jew
Kniggisen Jew
Latzis Lett
Schillenkuss Jew
Janson Lett
Rivkine Jew
Antonof Russian
Delafabre Jew
Tsitkine Jew
Roskirovitch Jew
G. Sverdlof Jew
Biesenski Jew
Blioumkine Jew
Alexandrevitch Russian
I. Model Jew
Routenberg Jew
Pines Jew
Sachs Jew
Daybol Lett
Saissoune Armenian
Deylkenen Lett
Liebert Jew
Vogel German
Zakiss Lett

Although Lenin is described as a “Russian,” in fact he was a mixture of various nationalities. It is likely that he was one-quarter Russian, one-quarter German, one-quarter Jewish and at least one-quarter Kalmuck (Mongol), which accounts for his Mongol appearance. Various authorities allege that his wife, Nadezhda Krupskaya was a Jewess and that her family spoke Yiddish in the home. A report sent to the British government in 1918 by Mr. Oudendyke, the Dutch consul in St. Petersburg, said that “Bolshevism is organised and worked by Jews.” The report was included in a pamphlet published as a government White Paper in April 1919 entitled Russia No. 1 (1919) A Collection of Reports on Bolshevism in Russia. However, the pamphlet was quickly withdrawn and reissued with various excisions and alterations made.

In the War Records Division of the United States National Archives there is filed a report from an American Intelligence operative in St. Petersburg. Under Record Group 20; Records of the American Expeditionary Forces Capt. Montgomery Schuyler, G2 Intelligence wrote, “The Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type.”

Also in the U.S. National Archives are two telegrams sent by American diplomats in Russia. State Department document 861.00/1757 sent on 2 May 1918 by U.S. Consul Summers in Moscow relates, “Jews predominant in local Soviet government, anti-Jewish feeling growing among population.” Document 861.00/2205 from Consul Caldwell in Vladivostock on 5 July 1918 describes, “Fifty per cent of Soviet government in each town consists of Jews of worst type.”

In January, 1924, Lenin died from causes variously described as ‘a heart attack,’ brain hemorrhage’ and ’syphilis.’ His comrades immediately began fighting amongst themselves to see who was to become his successor.

A relative outsider, Joseph Stalin, came to the fore and purged all competition either by exiling or executing them. Since Stalin was not Jewish, yet nearly all his opponents were, it is often suggested that Stalin was anti-Semitic. This is far from the truth.

Stalin had three wives, all of them Jewesses. The first was Ekaterina Svanidze who bore him one son, Jacob. His second wife was Kadya Allevijah. She bore him a son Vassili and a daughter Svetlana. His second wife died in mysterious circumstances, either by committing suicide or murdered by Stalin. His third wife was Rosa Kaganovich, the sister of Lazar Kaganovich, the head of Soviet industry. Stalin’s daughter (who in 1967 fled to the USA) then married Lazar’s son Mihail i.e. her step-mother’s nephew. Svetlana Stalin had a total of four husbands, three of them Jewish.

Stalin’s vice-president Molotov was also married to a Jewess, whose brother, Sam Karp, runs an export business in Connecticut. Just to complicate things even more, the Molotov’s (half-Jewish) daughter also called Svetlana was engaged to be married to Stalin’s son Vassili.

After the death of Stalin, his successors kept up the tradition, for a report in the B’nai B’rith Messenger relates: “To show that Russia treats its Jews well, Soviet Premier Nikita Kruschev this week remarked at a reception at the Polish Embassy that not only he himself and Soviet President Klementi Voroshilov, but also half the members of the Praesidium have Jewish wives. Mr. Kruschev made this remark to Israeli Ambassador Joseph Avidar, who was amongst the guests.” (Kruschev’s wife was yet another Kaganovitch.)

According to a report in The Canadian Jewish News of 13 November 1964 the present Soviet boss Leonid Brezhnev is married to a Jewess, and his children are brought up as Jews. There are a number of prominent Jews in the Soviet government, including Dimitri Dymshits in charge of industry, Lev Shapiro regional secretary of Birobidjan, and Yuri Andropov in charge of the secret police, the KGB. In fact, every secret police chief in Soviet history has been a Jew, from the first Uritsky to the most recent, the murderous Beria. A Jew is also in charge of the Soviet economy – Leonid Kantorovich.

It is a well-known fact that the Bolsheviks were and are financed by Jewish interests in the West.

At a Bolshevik celebration rally in New York’s Carnegie Hall on the night of 23 March 1917, a telegram of support from Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was read out. The telegram was reprinted in the next morning’s New York Times. Schiff later tried to deny his involvement, but thirty years later his grandson John admitted in the New York Journal-American (3 February 1949) that the old man had sunk twenty million dollars into the Bolshevik cause.

Another Western banker who poured funds into Bolshevik Russia was Olaf Ashberg of the Stockholm Nia Banken. He remained the Soviets’ paymaster until the late 1940s. The London Evening Standard of 6 September 1948 reported a visit by Ashberg to Switzerland “for secret meetings with Swiss government officials and banking executives. Diplomatic circles describe Mr. Ashberg as the ‘Soviet banker’ who advanced large sums to Lenin and Trotsky in 1917. At the time of the revolution, Mr. Ashberg gave Trotsky money to form and equip the first unit of the Red Army.”

The Bolsheviks also received assistance from Armand Hammer, who still commutes back and forward between New York and Moscow to take care of his business interests in both communities. Hammer’s Occidental Oil Company is at the moment building a 1600 mile chemicals pipeline in southern Russia. He is also on such good terms with the Soviets that he personally arranges for Soviet art galleries to lend paintings to America.

Another American-based businessman to help out the Soviet economy is Michael Fribourg, who owns the massive Continental Grain Company. Together with the Louis Dreyfus Corporation, these Jewish speculators were able to buy up vast quantities of cheap American grain in 1972, sell it to the Soviets at a vast profit, and collect an export subsidy from the U.S. taxpayer.

In every other East European country, it is exactly the same story:

In Hungary a Communist revolution was staged in 1919, instigated by the Jew Bela Kun (Cohen). During the three month regime, the country was turned upside down in a reign of murder and terror. Here again, the government was composed almost entirely of Jews. And it was this factor which brought about the regime’s downfall, as the ordinary Hungarians detested Jewish dictatorship. Kun was deposed and fled to the Soviet Union, where he became chief of the secret police, the Cheka, in southern Russia.

It was not until 1945 that the Jews were able to regain control. Three Russian Jews were installed as the ruling triumvirate, Matyas Rakosi (Rosencranz), Erno Gero (Singer) and Zoltan Vas. Both Rakosi and Gero had been members of Kun’s bloody government.

In Germany, the Jews also tried to take over there in the chaos that followed the First World War. Aided by funds from the Soviet Ambassador Joffe, Rosa Luxemburg’s Spartacus Bund attempted to overthrow the government. The revolt was quelled and its leaders Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht executed.

The post-war dictator of Roumania, Anna Pauker, was the daughter of a Bucharest kosher butcher. For a time she earned her living teaching Hebrew. her father and brother now live in Israel.

Although Tito was the only non-Jewish dictator behind the Iron Curtain in the late 1940s, he was tutored by the Jew Mosa Pijade. According to John Gunther in Behind the Iron Curtain, “He is Tito’s mentor… Whatever ideological structure Tito may have, he got it from the shrewd old man.”

Moscow’s puppet government in Czechoslovakia in the late 1940s was run by another Jew, Rudolph Slansky.

In Poland too, Jews occupied virtually every position of authority in the post-war Communist regime. Prominent among these were Minc, Skryesewski, Modzelewski and Berman. Jacob Berman gradually eclipsed the others until he became supreme dictator by himself. Also, Gomulka’s wife was a Jewess.

Even in China, Soviet Jews were at work helping Mao Tse Tung. High up in the Political Department of the Red Army in China were W. N. Levitschev and J. B. Gamarnik.

Prodigal son:

I have seen people make references to the ethnicity of Soviet leaders before, but like a lot of other crap that is written I am often skeptical of what I have read. The difference is you provide a reference. I am impressed. This explains a lot. You quoted several people who commented on the big role that jews played in the Soviet Union and communism. But, you missed one. Adolf Hitler tied jews and Bolshevism together referring to "jewish bolshevism" or "jewish bolshevists". The Soviet Union was Nazi Germany's biggest enemy ideologically and politically.

I have not read Marx and Engels, but I believe their intentions were good. People lived like shit in the 19th century. These two Germans (Marx being a German jew) were philosophers that wanted to improve peoples lives. Engels was a well to do industrialist. They saw that the poor didn't have a chance.

I believe the problem was how it was implemented. The Soviets were were extremely violent and killed many millions of people before WW II started. Several people have talked about the millions that were killed in earlier comments.

In September 1939 when Hitler attacked Poland, the number of people the NAZIS had killed was small, miniscule. In kristallnacht in 1938 the NAZIS had smashed the windows of jewish owned stores, beaten some people up and arrested them. The Soviets had already killed tens of millions of people.

People in much of Europe were genuinely scared of Soviet communism. They had heard of the millions that were killed in the Soviet Union. Hitler was able to recruit a lot of young men from Holland, Denmark, Norway, the Baltic countries, etc. that would form separate divisions in the waffen-ss. I've seen the recruiting posters and most appealed to anti-Bolshevist feelings among people.

Of course Hitler was also an extremist whom had no problem using violence. The Soviet Union was fearful of getting in another war with Germany (they had fought a terrible war in WW I a few years earlier) and the western countries heard about the violence and anti-semitism that was occurring in Germany up until 1939.

The difference between the west and the east is that Hitler did not want to fight Great Britain, France or the USA. Hitler (and most Germans) wanted the territories back that had been stolen from Germany after WW I.

WW II started when Hitler demanded Poland give the city of Danzig (a city that was 95% German) back to Germany and allow Germany to build a highway from Danzig to East Prussia, an area that was completely cut off from Germany. Poland refused (as they had done before). The Danziger's all wanted to be part of Germany again. Hitler attacked Poland to take Danzig and then Great Britain declared war on Germany.

Patrick Buchanan argues in "Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War" that Britain should not have attacked Germany. They made what would have been a local war (between Poland and Germany) into a world war. Others have argued the same thing.

WW II was a direct result of WW I. All of Hitlers claims (Czechoslovakia, Poland, Memel, etc.) were on countries or parts of those countries that had been German before 1919.

Prodigal Son, I recognize the document you posted from Michael A. Hoffmann. Care to provide the source for his claims. I'm sure he would have included it in the document or page that you copied it from. Just cut and paste.

Heh heh heh...

Aslan, some new things before returning to what we've been talking about. With regard to Mao Tse-Tung or Mao Zedong's intentions. Yes, Mao Tse-Tung or Zedong did things because he truly believed in China's best interests, as Ho Chi Minh truly believed in Vietnam's interests which incl. getting Vietnam's independence from France. It can also be said that Karl Marx believed what he wrote benefited humanity.

Yes, Mao Tse-Tung or Zedong industrialized China during the Great Leap Forward of 1958-61, but @ the expense of millions of Chinese deaths in a famine to change China from rural to industrial. There has been dispute as to what Mao's role was in this famine. Also, Mao Tse Tung's China invaded Tibet in 1950, which since then is under Commie rule. + you have Mao Zedong siding & helping Kim Il Sung during the Korean War by sending Chinese soldiers + helping the North Vietnamese Commies-China & Vietnam weren't trustworthy allies & have along turbulent history. Vietnam's most recent war with China was from Feb.-March 1979 over Langson. In that 1 month war, China lost around 30,000 soldiers & Vietnam lost 40,000 soldiers & Vietnamese civilian deaths. Deng Xiao Peng (SPL?)was the leader of China & Pham Van Dong (SPL?)was the leader of Vietnam during that 1 month war.

Mao Tse Tung did what he thought helped the Chinese people & he opened doors to Sino-American relations in 1972 when President Nixon visited China. While Mao Tse Tung like Ho Chi Minh deserves credit for some things & while they're not as ruthless as Stalin, Kim il Sung or Kim Jong il, the fact remains that Mao Tse Tung or Zedong does have millions of deaths under his rule & given that he & Ho Chi Minh were Communists & since Communism is subjugation of people, Mao Tse Tung was a dictator who did not care about freedom & democracy, though Mao Tse Tung did do what he believed helped China & in some areas he did help his nation.

Now to the Jewish Communists. Yes, Prodigal Son took a list from a revisionist named Michael A. Hoffman. Now I like you differ with Holocaust revisionists such as Michael A. Hoffman on the main points with regard to the Holocaust, but when it comes to Stalin's Jewish Commies, Michael A. Hoffman is right on that 1 & he didn't make up the names on the list.

I'm guessing the reason Michael A. Hoffman has that list is because he is German-American. He like other Germans has the view that if the Simon Wiesenthal Center & the Jewish Defense League will tell him on how evil Gentiles such as he & other Germans are for the Holocaust, then he'll write about Stalin's Communist crimes against humanity committed by Jewish Communists.

In fact, the Simon Wiesenthal Center even talk about how evil the Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians & Lithuanians are for collaborating with the Nazis during the Holocaust. Yes, there were collaborators but there were also those who fought the Nazis. As you're Chechen, you're aware that 1 million Soviet citizens (Russians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians & Ukrainians) fought in the Wehrmacht against the Red Army in the Battles of Stalingrad & Leningrade. In a few cases, you can even find a Latvian soldier in the Wehrmacht who ended up killing his brother who was in the Red Army during the Stalingrade battle-similar to what happened during the Civil War. You can be sure that were a few cases where a brother killing another brother also happened during the Korean & Vietnam War.

Getting back to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, they have been criticized by Ukrainians for showing them as Nazi collaborators when it's more complex. You raised again that most of Stalin's Commies were non-Jewish. Yes, but again, most of the Nazi victims were Gentiles, yet the focus is on the Jewish victims.

This is reduntant but if the Simon Wiesenthal Center is going to talk about how evil Gentiles are, then Gentiles will write about the evil things Jewish Communist men did against humanity. Yes, 9 people who I listed earlier don't represent the entire Jewish religion. When many more was written, let's say that 5,000 Stalin's Jewish Commie henchmen are named. Those 5,000 Stalin's Jewish henchmen are responsible for millions of Soviet deaths. 5,000 is many Jews. You may think it's retarded, but 5,000 is a large # & thus proves that there were many Jewish henchmen during Stalin's Red Terror & among them incl. the Jewess woman Ethel Rosenberg-the spy who sold atom bomb secrets to Stalin's USSR.

R.J. Rumnel of the University of Hawaii
has documented almost 62 million Soviet
caused deaths in his book below.
See description below right after the listings of his other works. This estimate
seems low but could be right.

Other Books on This site

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On Democide
China's Bloody Century

Democide: Nazi Genocide....

Death By Government

Statistics of Democide

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On Theory/Conflict/War
Vol. 1: The Dynamic Psychological Field (entire)

Vol. 2: The Conflict Helix (entire)

Vol. 3: Conflict In Perspective (entire)

Vol. 4: War, Power, Peace (entire)

Vol. 5: The Just Peace (entire)

The Conflict Helix: Principles and Practices....

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On The Democractic Peace
The Miracle That Is Freedom (entire)

Power Kills

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Methods
Understanding Correlation (entire)

Article: "Understanding Factor Analysis" (entire)

Lethal Politics: Soviet
Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917

By R.J. Rummel
New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1990

Truth is tough
---- O.W. Homes. The Professor at the Breakfast-Table

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CONTENTS
Preface
Acknowledgments
Chapter 1. 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987
Figure 1.1. Range in Soviet Democide Estimates
Table 1.1. Overview of Soviet Democide (Most Probable Estimates)
Figure 1.2. Democide Components and Soviet War/Rebellion Killed 1917-1987
Figure 1.3. Democide Components and Soviet War/RebellionKilled, by Percent of Violent Deaths 1917-1987
Figure 1.4. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Table 1.2. Comparisons of Soviet Democide
Figure 1.5. Comparisons of Soviet Democide
Table 1.3. Comparison of Soviet Annual Democide Risk to War and Commonplace Risks
Figure 1.6. Annual Risk of a Soviet Citizen being Murdered by His Own Government in Comparison to Some Other Risks
Appendix 1.1
Table 1.A. 61,911,000 Victims: Totals, Estimates, and Years
Appendix 1.2
Table 1.B. Soviet Transit, Camp, and Deportation Death Rates
Table 1.C. Democide Totals under Different Camp/Transit and Deportation Death Rates
Chapter 2. 3,284,000 Victims: The Civil War Period 1917 to 1922

Figure 2.1. Range in Civil War Democide Estimates
Table 2.1. Civil War Period Democide and Other Killed
Figure 2.2. Democide Components and Soviet War/Rebellion Killed 1917-1922
Appendix 2.1
Table 2.A. 3,284,000 Victims: Sources
Chapter 3. 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928

Figure 3.1. Range in NEP Democide Estimates
Table 3.1. NEP Period Democide
Figure 3.2. Democide Components for Civil War and NEP Periods
Figure 3.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 3.1
Table 3.A. 2,200,000 Victims During the NEP Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 4. 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period 1928-1935

Figure 4.1. Range of Collectivization Democide Estimates
Table 4.1. Collectivization Period Democide
Figure 4.2. Democide Components for Three Periods
Figure 4.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 4.1
Table 4.A. 11,440,000 Victims During the Collectivization Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 5. 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1935-1938
Figure 5.1. Range of Great Terror Democide Estimates
Table 5.1. Great Terror Period Democide
Figure 5.2. Democide Components for Four Periods
Figure 5.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 5.1
Table 5.A. 4,345,000 Victims During the Great Terror Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 6. 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939 to June, 1941

Figure 6.1. Range in Pre-World War II Democide Estimates
Table 6.1. Pre-World War II Period Democide
Figure 6.2. Democide Components for Five Periods
Figure 6.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 6.1
Table 6.A. 5,104,000 Victims During the Pre-World War II Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 7. 13,053,000 Victims: World War II Period June, 1941 to 1945

Figure 7.1. Range in World War II Democide Estimates
Table 7.1. World War II Period Democide
Figure 7.2. Democide Components for Six Periods
Figure 7.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 7.1
Table 7.A. 13,053,000 Victims During World War II Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 8. 15,613,000 Victims: Post-War and Stalin's Twilight Period 1945-1953

Figure 8.1. Range in Post War Democide Estimates
Table 8.1. Post War and Stalin's Twilight Period Democide
Figure 8.2. Democide Components for Seven Periods
Figure 8.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
Appendix 8.1
Table 8.A. 15,613,000 Victims the Postwar and Stalin's Twilight Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Chapter 9. 6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period 1954-1987

Figure 9.1. Range in Post War Democide Estimates
Table 9.1. Post-Stalin Period
Figure 9.2. Democide Components for All Periods
Appendix 9.1
Table 9.A. 6,872,000 Victims During the Post-Stalin Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates
Appendix A. Methodology: Principles, Procedures, and Definitions See the similar Appendix to China's Bloody Century, 1991.

References
Name Index
Subject Index

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PREFACE*
This book is part of a project on government genocide and mass killing in this century. The aim is to test the hypothesis that the citizens of democracies are the least likely to be murdered by their own governments; the citizens of totalitarian, especially Marxist systems, the most likely. The theory is that democratic systems provide a path to peace, and universalizing them would eliminate war and minimize global, political violence. This was the conclusion of my Understanding Conflict and War,1 and has been further confirmed by systematic, empirical tests since.2
In the process of that research, I discovered that governments have murdered millions of their own citizens, and that in some cases, the death toll may have actually exceeded that of World War II. To get some idea of the numbers involved, I surveyed the extent of genocide and mass killing by governments since 1900. The results were shocking: according to these first figures, independent of war and other kinds of conflict, governments probably have murdered 119,400,000 people, Marxist governments about 95,200,000 of them. By comparison, the battle-killed in all foreign and domestic wars in this century total 35,700,000.3

These monstrous statistics sharply reoriented my research. For over thirty years, as a political scientist and peace researcher, my research had focused on the causes and conditions of war, conflict, and peace. I had believed that war was the greatest killer and that nuclear war would be a global holocaust. Now I have found that aside from war the total killed by government was almost four times that of war. It was as though a nuclear war had already occurred.

Surprisingly few have recognized this. While much has been published on individual genocides, such as of the Jews or Armenians, and some general analyses have been done, as by Kuper4, virtually no research has been published on the total amount of genocide and mass murder among nations.5 The one exception is Elliot's Twentieth Century Book of the Dead, which arrives at a figure of about 100,000,000 killed in this century, including war. The work, however, omits many small genocides and is limited in its treatment of killing by Marxist governments.

For these reasons, with a grant from the United States Peace Institute, I undertook in 1988 a project to refine and elaborate my findings, to determine empirically the conditions and causes of government genocide and mass killing, and to assess the role of democratic versus autocratic institutions. The aim was to provide a comprehensive overview of such governmental murder, to test further whether the more democratic a nation, the more secure its citizens from such killing, and to publish the results in a major monograph.

Among the first studies undertaken was that of Soviet genocide and mass murder. This was a very difficult task, for while widely different estimates were available on such Soviet institutions as the labor camp, such polices as collectivization or the Red Terror, or such events as the deportation of Poles in 1939-1941, few experts had tried to systematically accumulate and total them over Soviet history. To my knowledge, there are only two major works in English attempting to tally the toll in some systematic manner.6 Robert Conquest gives a carefully accumulated total for the Stalin years (at least 20,000,000 killed)7; and in his samizdat translated into English, Dyadkin, a Soviet geophysicist, did a demographic analysis of excess Soviet deaths, 1926 to 1954, and concluded that Soviet repression killed 23,100,000 to 32,000,000 Soviet citizens over this 29-year period.8

Scattered here and there in one book or another are estimates of the number murdered. For example, Panin claims that 57,000,000 to 69,500,000 were killed, and says that estimates of authors in the West vary from 45,000,000 to 80,000,000 9; Solzhenitsyn mentions a 66,000,000 figure calculated by an ŽmigrŽ professor of statistics 10; and Stewart-Smith gives an estimate of 31,000,000 killed in repression 11. Like Dyadkin's, some estimates have been based on demographic analyses, as Medvedev's 22,000,000 to 23,000,000 total (1918-1953), or Dyadkin's aforementioned figures.12

For lack of a thorough statistical accumulation and analysis of Soviet genocides and mass murder from 1917 to recent years, I had to undertake at least a first effort in this direction. Initially, the result was to be a chapter in a monograph on 20th century genocide and mass killing. But it soon became clear that the Soviets themselves are responsible for so many genocides, and that so many different kinds of mass killings had occurred, that to unravel and present the detailed events and institutions involved and the related statistics would require a monograph itself. Thus this book.

To best present the historical details, statistical analyses, and various figures and sources, and yet to make the book readable and useful to various publics, I have divided the book in the following way. First, the statistical data, sources, and analyses have been separated from the historical when, what, and why of the estimates. This provides an explanation and understanding of the deaths being reported, and historical narrative for those uninterested in the statistical details, while also making available the statistical material for specialists. Second, rather than put all the statistics in one, huge appendix at the end of the book, an appendix has been prepared for each historical period, thus keeping the historical narrative and related statistical material together. Third, each historical period has been treated as a chapter, with the associated statistical appendix at the end. Finally, an historical overview and analysis and presentation of the final results was made the first chapter, which constitutes an executive summary. Its appendices sum up the statistical data, compares these to estimates in the literature, and simulates the result of altering some important assumptions.

I should note that there is a clear division in style between the appendices and the historical narrative. In the appendices I have tried to be as objective, neutral, and balanced in a conservative direction as possible, recognizing that we all have biases that work against our best intentions in surprising ways. The methodological appendix to this book spells out the principles and procedures guiding the preparation of the estimates and totals in the appendices.

However, in the narrative I have been less than dry and disinterested. I am clearly horrified by the nature and extent of mass killings being recorded; as a pacifist, I have been so overcome with emotion that at times I have had to put this work aside many times. Therefore, I did not restrain myself from peppering the narrative with adjectives like "monstrous", "horrible", and "evil", and liberally used irony and sarcasm as rhetorical weapons against this inhumanity. The style of Solzhenitsyn's Gulag seemed also appropriate here. But he wrote with a mission, and from the perspective of his own experience, and I am no Solzhenitsyn. Once I was able to unload myself onto a preliminary draft, I then thoroughly revised it, eliminating the more "egregious" adjectives and phrases. Nonetheless, a style remains which is more assertive, less "balanced", than some specialists and historians might desire. If this be so, then I can only say that it is to others I must leave writing with dispassion about the murder of tens of millions of human beings.

One final comment on the term murder. If anything may appear to display an anti-Soviet, less than professional bias, it may be the consistent accusation that the Soviets have murdered all these millions; and to use the term in the title of this book. I am doing this, however, because I believe the technical meaning of murder fits what the Soviets did. To murder someone means to unlawfully and purposely kill him, or to be responsible for his death through reckless and depraved indifference to his life (as in Soviet deportations or the labor camps). As established by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal after World War II, "crimes against humanity" consists of

murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhuman acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connexion with any crime against peace or any war crime.13

With the Nazi invasion of Poland that began World War II, their massacre of Jews and others, deportation of civilians, atrocities in occupied territory, execution of opponents at home, and so on, were thus crimes against humanity. Similar acts by Soviet authorities during their own civil and international wars were also such crimes.

As for Soviet genocides, massacres of civilians, deportations, and the like, in time of peace, the Genocide Convention, passed by the General Assembly of the United Nations in 1948 covers much of that. By Article I:

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.14

The Soviet representative, among others, successfully fought to limit the interpretation of genocide to national, religious, ethnic, and language groups.15 The massacre of political groups and opponents are purposely excluded. But a prior resolution of the General Assembly passed in late 1946 explicitly covers them. According to this resolution,

Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings....Many instances of such crimes of genocide have occurred, when racial, religious, political and other groups have been destroyed, entirely or in part....
The General Assembly Therefore, Affirms that genocide is a crime under international law which the civilized world condemns, and for the commission of which principals and accomplices--whether private individuals, public officials or statesmen, and whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds--are punishable.16

All this covers what the Soviets did in killing their own or subject people. According to the international community, these were crimes against humanity. They were illegal. If ever the responsible actual or former Soviet officials were tried before an international tribunal for these crimes, they could be punished as murderers.

While trying to be as historically objective as possible, we also should not fear calling a murderer, a murderer; and murder, murder. 

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NOTES
* This is a pre-publisher edited version of the preface in R.J. Rummel's Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917, New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers, 1990
1. Rummel (Understanding Conflict and War)

2. See Rummel ("Libertarianism and International Violence", "Libertarianism, Violence Within States, and the Polarity Principle", "Libertarian Propositions on Violence Within and Between Nations: A Test Against Published Research Results")

3. Rummel (1986, 1987, 1988).

4. Kuper (1981).

5. Melgounov (1925) and Maximoff (1940).

6. Conquest (1968, Appendix A). In a report written for the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary (1970), Conquest attempts to estimate the number killed since 1917, which he concludes would have to be over 22,000,000 citizens (p.. 25). This effort is much less systematic than op. cit.

7. Dyadkin (1983, p. 60). An assumed 20 million war dead for World War II and 40 thousand for the Soviet-Finnish War are subtracted from Dyadkin's figures.

8. Panin (1976, p. 93n).

9. Solzhenitsyn (1975a, p. 10).

10. Stewart-Smith (1964, p. 222). Includes the "1933-5" famine.

11. Medvedev (1979, pp. 140-141); from Soviet demographer M. Maksudov.

12. Solzhenitsyn (1973).

13. Falk, et al. (1971, p. 108).

14. Kuper (1981, p. 210).

15. Ibid., Chapter 2.

16. Quoted in Ibid., p. 23.

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For citations see the Lethal Politics REFERENCES

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ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
I am indebted to the United States Institute of Peace for a grant to my project on comparative genocide, of which this book is a part. But in no way does this book necessarily represent the views of the Institute.
I also wish to thank George Kent for his helpful comments on the draft of Chapter 1 and Ernest Lefever and Manfred Henningsen for causing me to reconsider and revise the narrative style. As in all my work, I owe many thanks to my wife, Grace, for her comfort, honesty, and thorough editing. I hasten to add, that I alone am responsible for the what follows.

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One typo in Rumnel is the PRC from 1949 to 1987, not 1928 to 1987. He has separate
death stats, over 10 million for Chiang
and more than that for the Japanese. He
now concedes that he erred in his original
38 million death toll for Mao because he
left the Great Leap which itself is another
38 million. But he corrected.
Also the 62 million Soviet murders estimate
as well as the 76 million Chicom murders estimate were all done in peacetime.
By contrast the 17 million Nazi death estimates are almost all wartime including
the dubious "holocaust" story. Rumnel has
admitted that he is not familiar with the
work of the holocaust revisionists. But
in light of his other great work we can
overlook this. Rumnel tends to lump the
Nazis and the Reds all together in one big
socialist lump. There's some truth to that
but Nazi Germany was a far freer society
than the USSR or Red China. Their ideology
was New Dealish through and through.
See Debating The Holocaust by Thomas Dalton,
Ph.D, available from Amazon. He is irrefutable and started from the traditional
position.

Lets take the Iraq war for instance will historians say the true number of Iraq civilians killed by allied forces are 2,000,000 by some media accounts or 25,000 by military accounts, which will we believe, were the Iraqis mistreated by the allied forces are were they treated with expected war time mentality.

David Irving and the Holocaust, I believe he has may good points and some truth as do the Jewish people, however history can be written and changed and rewritten and changed again. The truth is the world at the time was a Holocaust, people of all races died for nothing but for someone else, the people in power and that would be every head of state. They all died for nothing as WWII did not stop the senseless killing of humans, the Holocaust continues in all regions against all people.

A video of David Irving speaking about his recent discovery of a message the British intercepted from the Germans regarding the death toll in Dresden. This proves that well over 100,000 died in the bomber attacks on Dresden.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/deathroll/Chicago_speech.html

The naysayers are going to have to eat their words now. Apologies are in order.

Holocaust deniers are not "revisionist" historians. They are not historians at all. They are practiced liars, and pissant neo-Nazi scum.

As for Ominivore L'Assclown's restatement above of the perennial, and much-debunked, "four million gambit," I refer him and his fellow antisemite tards to Nizkor projects page on this, which reads in part:

"More recently there have been attempts to accurately the number dead at Auschwitz. Franciszek Piper of the Auschwitz State Museum published a study called `The Number of Victims' in Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp.[12] The study outlines his investigation into the total Auschwitz death toll, and how he reached his estimate of 1.1 million, effectively debunking the old Soviet figure.

"*`The four million figure was changed due to 'revisionist' findings.'

"This claim is clearly fallacious, as the revised figure is actually more in tune with the estimates of credible historians than the Soviet Commission's count. If anything, it was the easing of cold war tensions that allowed reexamination of the four million total rather than the research of `revisionist historians.'

"In fact, it was a study begun in 1980 by Franciszek Piper, head of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz State Museum that finally displaced the Museum's four million figure. [13] Piper collected all available documentation on how many deportees arrived at Auschwitz, and subtracted from this all known transfers, releases, and escapees to arrive at his estimation. Here are his calculations:

"Deportees to Auschwitz: 1,300,000
Transfers: -212,820
Released prisoners: -1,500
Escapees: -500
Liberated Prisoners: -8,000
----------
Total Dead: 1,077,180

"Or about 1.1 million dead, which is not that different from Hilberg's estimate of one million dead at Auschwitz.[14] Piper concluded that this figure is a minimum estimate, as this does not account for victims not listed in the records, particularly those who were killed immediately upon arrival. After the study's completion in 1986, Piper's findings were confirmed by a panel of historians appointed by Poland's Ministry of Culture.[15] Shortly thereafter, the official death toll at the State Museum was lowered to 1.1 million.

"`Since the Auschwitz State Museum lowered its death toll to one million, the total number of Holocaust victims should be reduced by about three million.'

"Again, this is false. Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure."

Read the rest of Nizkor's verbal bitch-slap to the Hitler apologists at this url:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-03.html

Oh, and Omnivore L'Assclown: FUCK YOU, YOU LITTLE NAZI SHIT!

I posted the article below for one purpose only. To show how a lie can be stated and repeated often enough so that it then becomes an undisputed fact to people. An undisputed fact, despite the fact that it is a lie. One of the most repeated stories about Hitler is how he snubbed the the african-american olympian Jesse Owens and refused to shake his hand. This is repeated over and over despite the fact that Jesse Owens said the following:

"When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad taste in criticising the man of the hour in Germany," he said.

Its known that he said this and not disputed, but the lie that Hitler snubbed Owens is still repeated anyway.

But now a German reporter has stepped forward and said he personally saw Hitler shake Owens hand. So not only did Hitler not snub Owens, he shook his hand. The story is reported in todays UK Telegraph newspaper below.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/6008196/Adolf-Hitler-did-shake-hands-with-Jesse-Owens.html

The reason the handshake was not reported the reporter states was the following:

The predominating opinion in post-war Germany was that Hitler had ignored Owens.

"We therefore decided not to report on the photo. The consensus was that Hitler had to continue to be painted in a bad light in relation to Owens."

The Hitler snub of Owens is consistent with Assholes version of WW II history. This version is fabricated, convenient, unprovable, politically correct and completely wrong.

Great postings, Peter. Thanks.

Many people wonder how Hitler could have despised Jews to the extent that he was indifferent to their wholesale slaughter. You Mr. Lemons answer that question more articluately and comprehensively than any volume on the Holocaust.

Peter said: "He does not say the holocaust didn't happen..."

He does deny the holocaust in his post 1980s works. Why do you think Austria convicted him?

"This six million nonsense was tried way back in 1919:"

Shows how much historical knowledge Holocaust deniers have! Just in case you don't get it, WW2 was between 1939-1945!

Twat...

Spielberg is a God among men. Pure genious.